How to Break Free From Sexual Shame | Dr. Juli Slattery

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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How to Overcome Sexual Shame

Guest:Dr. Juli Slattery

Release Date:June 26, 2025

Juli:When you say, “Okay, I’m a Christian: ‘I’m going to make sure I don’t look at pornography,’ ‘I’m going to make sure I don’t sleep around,’ ‘I am just going to control this part of my life.’”

Ann:—which, some people are hearing that, like, “Wait; what’s wrong with that?”

Dave:“What’s wrong with that?” Yeah; “I should control that.”

Juli:It’s not surrender.

Ann:I’m pretty excited to have Juli Slattery—

Dave:I have no idea why.

Ann:Juli, we love you! We’re so happy—

Dave:You guys are like sisters. I don’t know what it is.

Ann:I wish she was my sister.

Dave:She is; she is.

Ann:I know.

Dave:You’re sisters in Christ.

Ann:I know.

Dave:So why you’re excited; really. I want to hear it.

Ann:Because Juli—I think her wisdom on this topic that we’re talking about today, sexuality—

Dave:Juli never talks about sexuality; do you? Just this one time?

Juli:Just this one time for you guys.

Dave:Okay.

Ann:—because she brings practical help and hope in a biblical, grounded way that makes us all lean in. The world’s wondering: “What’s happening in our lives when it comes to sexuality?” “Jesus, are You in it? How can we trust You?” You do such a good job, Juli, of answering all those questions.

I think Dave and I are just excited, because we learn from you every time. Don’t you think we do?

Dave:Oh, for sure. I’m going to make a pretty big statement here: “In my opinion, I don’t think there’s anybody better on this topic.”

Ann:Me too.

Dave:I know our listeners know you pretty well. We get to hang out with you and Mike, your husband. How many years you been married?

Juli:Thirty.

Dave:Thirty years; wow.

So remind our listeners—and now, we have watchers—they’re watching us on these cameras on YouTube. How did you end up in this lane, ministry wise? I don’t think you chose it.

Juli:No, I didn’t.

Dave:It chose you.

Ann:We’ve asked you this before; but for our new listeners, I think it’d be good to hear this.

Dave:We’re talking today about Surrendered Sexuality. How’d you end up here?

Juli:Well, my background is in clinical psychology. I’ve always had a heart for marriage and family issues. For the first—I don’t know—15/20 years of ministry, I was a generalist, writing on women’s issues and marriage issues; and doing counseling. And then, I guess it would be about

13 years ago, God just really dramatically took me through this deep time with Him of months, and months, and months of seeking Him and just burdened my heart for sexuality. It was a long journey to get there, but it was so profound and heavy that it was like I knew that I knew that I knew that this was what God was calling me to do.

Ann:When you say, “He burdened you, what did that feel like?”

Juli:Well, for a while, it was literally a physical pain in my chest.

Ann:Really?

Juli:Yeah.

Dave:It wasn’t a health-related deal?

Juli:No; actually, my husband was concerned and made me go see a cardiologist. I told him/I said, “This is spiritual.”

Ann:You told Mike that or the doctor?

Juli:Yeah, I did both.

Ann:You did?

Juli:I said, “It happened/it started happening when I was on a prayer-and-fasting retreat, and just really feeling like the Holy Spirit was just getting a hold of me. And then, it would wake me up in the middle of the night.

Ann:—with the pain?—or with this topic?

Juli:The pain; the pain. It started with a pain. And then, I had a mentor, Linda Dillow, who was discipling me through this. She said, “You need to start asking God what His call on your life is.”

Ann:It reminds me of Samuel and Eli, when Samuel kept hearing God call

him. And then, Eli saying, “Say, ‘Here I am Lord.’” That’s what you’re saying: “What are You saying to me?”

Juli:Yeah; I was a little older than Samuel. I still remember: it was in July—being on my knees, and just asking the Lord: “What are You calling me to?” “What’s this pain about?” “What this season about?”—and Him really clearly—I kept hearing the words from Isaiah 61 over and over again—”I’m sending you to bind up the broken-hearted and release captives, prisoners in captivity.” I didn’t know where that was from; so I Googled it, and I found the passage.

Ann:Wait; what?!

Juli:Yeah, I knew it was familiar; so I Googled it. I read the passage; I write in my Bible the date: “This is Your call on my life.”

Dave: You wrote that in your Bible?

Juli:I did, yeah; July of 2011. And then, I knew it was about biblical sexuality. I knew it was about all these people crying out to the Lord: “Where are You in my sexual pain?” That’s all I knew. And then, God just led me, step by step, to start the ministry, Authentic Intimacy.

I’ve been on a learning journey. I feel like I learn; and then, I teach. I learn; and then, I teach. I keep learning.

Dave:Even as I’m looking at this passage again—I’m just going to read it for our listeners who maybe aren’t Googling it right now—I’ve never read it with that thought in mind: of people, in sexual bondage, needing freedom.

“The Spirit of the Lord”—this is Isaiah 61:1—”The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound.” Wow; wow!

Ann:And you knew that it was going to be about sexuality?

Juli:I did.

Ann:How did you know that part?

Juli:I just knew.

Ann:You knew?

Juli:I just knew.

Dave:Was that an emphasis in your studies or anything?

Juli:No; I had written a book for wives on sexuality, and done some speaking, just because nobody else would. I’m sure you’ve been in that position before: “We need somebody to talk about sex.” But I wouldn’t have ever volunteered to do that—didn’t feel like an expert in it—had my own struggles related to it.

Ann:It’s interesting, Juli; I talk to women who are like, “I feel like God’s calling me to something, and I don’t know what it is.” Based on what you’ve gone through, what would you say to them?

Juli:Seek God; don’t seek the calling. When He wants to move—you know what it is—you know the steps of obedience you need to take. If you ask me what I’m going to be doing a year from now, I can’t tell you. But I know what it is to seek Him and trust Him daily; He lets you know.

Ann:I like that. You didn’t even start researching or studying any of this until you first knew His calling.

Juli:Right; yes.

Dave:Is there, in your mind—that was 13 years ago?—

Julie:Yes.

Dave:—is there a difference in the culture, even in the church, with sexuality than it was when you started?

Juli:Oh, huge difference.

Dave:When we speak—and I know you speak around—and whenever we do Q&A—we’re talking about marriage, not always sexuality, marriage—and 90 percent of the questions are about sex. It’s usually really heartbroken people who are really struggling with that. It feels like a different day than it was 20 years ago.

Juli:It definitely is. I think first of all, Dave, we’re more open about our struggles.

Dave:We are—we keep ours all quiet—we don’t tell anybody!

Juli:You couldn’t have the same conversations, even on FamilyLife, 20 years ago, then you could have today. When we first started the ministry, churches would say, “We really want you to come speak, but…”—either—“we don’t have these issues in our church,” or “we’re afraid what will happen if you do.” There were a lot of closed doors. And now, everybody’s like, “Please come and speak to us. We have all these issues. We don’t know what to do about them.” To some extent, all of that brokenness and confusion was there; we just didn’t talk about it.

But then, there’s another layer of the confusion being deeper and more pervasive: the pornography use, both for men and women; and then, all the questions about gender identity and sexual identity. The confusion about even: “Is God’s Word loving?” “Is it good on these topics?” “…cohabitation rights.” All these things have become normalized in Christian culture, particularly among the younger generation; so the questions are more complex. I think the foundations of even how we think about this topic have become so muddled that it’s a different day than it was when I started the ministry.

Ann:I think we’re hungry for answers. I think, especially if we have kids who are growing up in this culture, I think parents are at their wits’ end: “I don’t know what to say,” “What’s biblically true?” I feel like your message is needed more than ever before.

Dave:I’m writing down.

Ann:What are you writing down?

Dave:I’m writing down a question that I just thought of, based on what you just said, that I’m going to save for the bonus section of our podcast. You probably know this: we have people who support FamilyLife monthly; we call them partners, Family Life partners.

We’ve added a little section to our podcast, where those who support us are on our team, get to stay on. I’m saying that because we’d like you to join our team. We give you bonus material, like this question I’m going to ask Juli later; I can tell you what it is. If you’re a partner, you can join us. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and click on the “Donate” button; jump in, and you can hear that too.

Ann:Well, Juli, this new book that you’ve written, called Surrendered Sexuality, give us a little insight into the background; because you just told me, as we were having lunch today, this has been your hardest book to write.

Juli:Yes.

Ann:Why?

Juli:Yes, it was.

Ann:Interesting. And I want to know about the title too.

Dave:I didn’t hear that!

Ann:Yes, that was just for me.

Dave:That was your bonus from Juli.

Juli:It actually happened in the women’s room; we were talking about this.

Ann:It actually did. I wasn’t going to say it, Juli; but now, that you put it out there—

Juli:We’re going to be transparent.

Dave:Men do not talk in the bathroom; we don’t even look at each other. Women go in there and talk. I don’t even want to know.

Juli:Yeah, you don’t want to know.

Dave:Yeah; so this has been the hardest one to write.

Juli:Yes, it was. It’s written now, so I’m thankful it’s done. But yeah, I battled with writing this book.

Dave:You were already into the project; then, “Why?”

Ann:It was too hard?

Juli:It was too hard, yeah.

Dave:What’s hard? What do you mean?—had to be something.

Juli:I think one thing that was hard is: to write a book to the general Christian audience on sexuality, where I now am so aware of the multiple pain points:

You know somebody’s going to pick up this book, who has horrendous sexual trauma in their past.

And you know somebody, who’s going to pick up this book, who really thinks that God created them to be gay; and a loving God would let them marry the person they want to marry.

Ann:—that’s what they’re thinking.

And you know somebody is going to pick up the book, who is addicted to pornography, and hasn’t told a soul. And on, and on, and on.

I have all these people in my mind, whom I’ve walked with. Writing a book of biblical truth—the journey of: “How do we surrender this area of our life to God?”—knowing particularly, in those first few chapters, all the things that will be triggered and all the questions that will be raised. It just was so difficult.

And then, I had a pilot study going through it with me as I wrote. They were being very honest about how it was hitting them, and some of it was difficult for them. It was just wanting to be sensitive to how tender this topic is but wanting to be bold with biblical truth. I think that’s—and then, there’s a spiritual element to it—

Ann:—the spiritual warfare.

Juli:—of just the discouragement. I think, when God really calls us to something, it’s something that we can’t do in our own strength and wisdom.

Ann:I think the word, “surrendered,” is probably my favorite word in the Christian life; because to me, that’s my theme. I think it really is for anybody: if we want to live and walk with Jesus, it’s laying down our lives in every single area. This [title]—Surrendered Sexuality—I’m thinking you’re very intentional about that word that goes alongside it.

Juli:I’ve learned, over 13 years of ministry in this space, that sexuality is very often a wall between people and God. I’m not just talking about unbelievers; I’m talking about Christians, where they know: “I’m supposed to be giving my whole life to the Lord, laying my body down before the altar as a living sacrifice; loving Him with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength.”

But this is a piece of their life that feels impossible to surrender for one reason or another. And so it becomes compartmentalized, and they don’t know what to do with it. And then, the enemy really camps there; so that they begin to think: “Well, I can’t surrender,” “I can’t serve God; I can’t be available to Him. God can’t save me; God can’t help me, because I’ve got this pocket over here that I don’t know what to do with. I’m not sure God even sees or cares about.”

The book really is not so much—it’s all about sexuality—but it’s really more about the Christian journey of: “What does it mean to bring something to Jesus and trust Him; and work through all of the shame, and all the pain, and the questions, with your eyes fixed on Him?”

Ann:Have you ever had anything like that?—the sexuality area that has been hard to grapple with, to take that to Jesus and surrender?

Juli:Yeah, I think more than once. I think I’ve talked publicly about how this was not a good area in our marriage, just like: “Where’s the goodness of God in it?”—and the pain and the struggle. And then, there are other situations that I can’t speak publicly about, where this has just been an area of real pain for me. So I feel it.

Ann:You’ve experienced it yourself.

Juli:Yes.

Ann:And I’m thinking of the pockets; we named a lot of them, like pornography, sexual trauma, abuse,—

Dave:—gender.

Ann:—gender.

Juli:Or even, as a parent, so many parents are like: “My child is transitioning genders,” or “…has just told me that they’re gay, and they’re getting married to the person they love. I feel torn. Do I serve God, or do I love my child?”—in my ministry, these are the stories I hear daily—“My husband has cheated on me, been addicted to pornography; I don’t know what to do.” I just see this is a pain point that the enemy uses to divide us from the love of Christ.

Ann:And so much of it’s a secret, because of the shame we carry along with it.

Dave:So how do we surrender our sexuality? In some ways, I’m thinking—I don’t know; I think it was Billy Graham who said—“The average person, when they get baptized, takes their wallet and holds it up out of the water: ‘I baptize all of me, but my money I’m not going to…’” As a pastor—

Ann:—or “’…my calendar. My calendar’s in my phone, so that’s up there too.’”

Dave:But when I think of that, I think a lot of people feel the same way about their sexuality. It’s like: “I’m giving everything to Jesus, but this part…”

I came to Christ in college, and that was my first question to my mentor: “So what’s God think of sexuality. Can I have sex? I hope I can!”

Ann:That was my [question] I went into a Christian bookstore at 18 years old—no, I was 17—because I didn’t grow up in the church. Nothing was written about it back then. I went into a Christian bookstore, which I felt like, “This is a piece of heaven. This is an amazing place.” I wanted to go ask the lady, who was behind the desk, “Can you point me to a book that tells me if it’s okay to have sex before I get married?”—that’s what I wanted to say, but I felt too much shame. And then, I almost asked Dave; because he was a friend. But I was too embarrassed to ask him. But there’s just a shroud of secrecy and shame.

Dave:Maybe, that’s why we ended up together. We both had the same first question!

Juli:Have you figured it out?

Dave:I don’t know if we have, 45 years in. But it is a sense, and as I disciple men, they’re like, “I’m good with everything. This area: please tell me I don’t have to surrender that,”—especially, if they’re not married. They’re thinking, “I still want to have sex outside of marriage.” It’s like, “No, God has a better plan.”

So is that what Surrendered is a little bit about?—it’s “All the above”?

Juli:Yeah, that’s why I wrote a whole book on it; honestly. I think I’ve seen people do one of three things instead of a surrender:

I’ve seen them compartmentalize. You see this dramatic kind of expression of that when we see Christian leaders, who have this pocket of something that they’ve not disclosed, and it blows up. Well, that happens every day in real Christian/just normal Christian lives—not just leaders—where it’s like, “Oh, I can have this little secret struggle,” or “…lust,” “…addiction,”—whatever—“…a relationship that I don’t tell anybody about. I can still go to church, and read my Bible, and serve God, and just have a wall.” So you can compartmentalize.

Another thing you see is compromise: “I just don’t think God meant that to be true for our day and age. We know so much more now than we did when Paul was writing his letters, and when Jesus lived. That if they were around today, they would be a little looser on this stuff.”

And then, I see the third approach is: they try to control their behavior, and that’s not surrender—when you say—“Okay, I’m a Christian: ‘I’m going to make sure I don’t look at pornography’; ‘I’m going to make sure I don’t sleep around’; ‘I’m just going to control this part of my life.’”

Ann:—which, some people are hearing that, like, “Wait; what’s wrong with that?”

Dave:“What’s wrong with that?” Yeah; “I should control that.”

Juli:It’s not surrender, and that’ll only work for so long. You talk to somebody, who would say, “I haven’t looked at porn in three months,”—and it’s all their own willpower—it’s not been surrendered to the Lord. There’s a matter of time where that dam is going to break, because we’re just not strong enough in our own strength.

Dave:What does it look like to be surrendered and not just control?

Juli:Surrender means that you give that whole part of yourself to the Lord. Let’s take the example of pornography. Underneath pornography use:

Our belief systems that sex is about me consuming, and me feeling happy, and me objectifying people.

You also, almost always, have pornography self-medicating something: “I don’t know how to deal with my depression,” “…my anxiety,” “…my loneliness,”—maybe—“…my trauma.”

When you try to control your behavior—but you’re not inviting God into those other areas of your wounding, and how you’re thinking how you’re doing life—at best, you’re just going to move to another addiction. So surrender is: “God, I can’t stop on my own.”

Ann:So it’s admitting that; confessing it to God.

Juli:—and inviting Him in to everything. It’s not just inviting Him in to change my behavior; it’s inviting Him in to remake all of who I am, in the image of Christ.

Ann:And that’s your prayer.

Juli:Yeah.

Dave:Have you seen that with people you’ve worked with?—

Juli:Absolutely.

Dave:—where the surrender is the thing?—the repentance?

Ann:You always have such great stories.

Dave:Yeah; tell us a story without telling us the name.

Juli:Oh, man; so many.

Dave:Really?

Juli:There’s a lot of stories in the book.

Ann:I love that.

Juli:There’s a story of a pastor I know who: “I’ve struggle with pornography”; came to know the Lord in college.

Dave:Hey, this isn’t me—in case people are listening—because all of that is true.

Juli:There you go!

Dave:I was a pastor; struggled with pornography; came to Christ—so this is another pastor.

Juli:He didn’t tell anybody in his church. He felt horrible about it, shameful about it; even doubted his salvation. He kept praying that God would take away the struggle and that he’d stop sinning. He’d have success for a little bit of time; and then, fall back into it. Somewhere along the road, he got some good discipleship and mentoring—got connected with our ministry—and began realizing that it’s not about trying harder to not sin. It’s really about intimacy with God, so the subtitle of this book is: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything.

When you think about surrender in this particular pastor’s life—or so many others that I can tell you about—it’s when we know Jesus in such a way that He’s more powerful to us than our sin is, that the sin falls away.

Ann:So good!

Juli:This pastor shared his story a little bit in the book. I’ve shared his story with me and so many other people. Whether it’s abuse or unforgiveness, surrender requires trust. The problem is that most of us don’t know Jesus well enough to trust Him. And so when you say to somebody—a believer—“Just surrender your relationship to the Lord,” “…your relationship with your boyfriend or girlfriend,” or “Surrender your future to the Lord.”

Ann:—or “…your sexuality.”

Juli:—or “…this sin struggle, the honest surrender of it.” Who are they surrendering to? Are they surrendering to a Jesus who kind of has echoes in the church? Are they surrendering to Somebody that they know well enough to know that He will not condemn them, and that He is for them, and He will walk with them?

All the stories I could share are not about one-time epiphanies. It’s about these journeys of realizing that: “I’ve come to know Jesus in such a way that He’s greater,—

Ann:—”He’s better.”

Juli:—”and He’s worthy of my surrender.”

Ann:I don’t think a majority of the people know Him like that.

Juli:No.

Ann:I think they see him as a God of judging; a God of rules; condemnation. I used to see Him as, in my young mind, was He’s the Old Testament scary, holy, righteous God, who could never be in my presence because I’m such a sinner: “I have such a horrible past; He has to look away from me.”

That’s not who He is. When you read Scripture—especially, as you read the New Testament—and see how Jesus identifies with, loves; He’s with people. He’s not condoning their sin; but He gives them and offers grace; freedom [from] their sin.

Juli:I think most of us feel like—and I certainly felt this way—that we have to get our act together in order to have intimacy with God. When you have sexual issues—whether they be past sins, or current struggles, or questions—you feel like, “Well, until I get this worked out, I can’t be used by God. I can’t know Him; I can’t have intimacy with Him.” Actually, the opposite is true: it’s through intimacy with Him that the questions get answered, and our wounds get healed, and our sin struggles lose their power.

Ann:Yeah, that’s really good. When you say: “Sex is never just about the sex,”—you say that a lot—

Juli:Yes, I do.

Ann:—”Sex is never just about the sex,”—is that what you’re talking about when you bring in the spiritual component?

Juli:Yeah; I really believe that every sexual issue is also a spiritual issue. There’s something underneath—there is a spiritual river underneath—what’s happening sexually. When we talk about sex in the church, we’re often just talking about the behavior. We’re not tapping into that deeper spiritual river: “What’s happening?” “How is this separating you from God?” “How is this creating doubt about His goodness?” “How is it keeping you from wanting to surrender your life fully to Him?” That’s what gets me excited: is the spiritual things that are happening underneath the sexual issues and questions.

Ann:I like the “spiritual river”; that’s a great word picture to me, a visual. Give us an example of that—of somebody, who’s like, “Okay, this is what I think it is,”—but it’s a spiritual river.

Juli:Let’s say there’s an example of a couple who are having real issues in their sexual relationship: maybe, a temptation to have an affair; or maybe, even recover from an affair. The issue is: “I’m not happy with my partner; I’m more attracted to this other person. I think this other person would make me happier.” That what we see on the surface; and we say, “Don’t do it! That’s wrong; don’t have an affair.”

But if we look underneath what’s happening in that person’s heart, they’re beginning to doubt the goodness of God. They’re beginning to believe that: “My fullest life doesn’t come from following God. It comes from this other person,” or “…feeling good,” or “…feeling validated.” That’s an example of the spiritual river.

Or after the affair happens, then there’s the shame of: “I’ve blown it; I can never be redeemed. My marriage could never be redeemed.”

Ann:—and “I’m not worthy to be redeemed.”

Juli:Either I have to hide this, and not tell anyone; or sometimes, people just give into the shame. They’re like, “Well, I’ve blown it. So what does it matter? I might as well just live in sin for the rest of my life.”

Again, I think this idea of surrender is going to the deeper places of: “What’s happening in the person’s relationship with God?” “What’s happening in their journey with God?” “How is sexuality either keeping them from knowing the love of God?—or even the sexual pain becoming an opportunity to draw them into knowing God?” Why did Jesus bring up—the woman at the well—why did He bring up her sexual brokenness?

Dave:Why did He?

Juli:What do you think?—you’re the pastor.

Dave:No, I was just going to—you wrote the book!

Juli:Yeah; I’m going to quote John Piper. When he was writing about that encounter, he said, “Jesus knew that the quickest way to the heart is through a wound.”

Ann:Oh, I haven’t heard that quote before; that’s good!

Juli:If you think about that, that’s where our wounds live—often, in our sexuality—it’s in our rejection; it’s in our longing; it’s in our shame. Jesus enters into that—not to condemn us—but to stand there with us and to offer us life and living water. He knew that this is what this woman kept going back to—to find life—and it wasn’t fulfilling. He said, “Hey, I can offer you what you’re looking for.” But He had to open that wound first, or they would’ve just been talking theology and never gotten to the heart.

Dave:In some way—I got to say this—what you just said sounds like the church’s, or the Christian teaching, for decades has been: “Talk around it,”—behavior—

Ann:—behavior modification.

Dave:never getting underneath it to the real issue. And so we grew up, trying to abstain before marriage, and control, rather than getting to the river. Is that true?

Juli:So true; it is so true. That’s why we haven’t been effective. When you talk about the river of what’s happening, spiritually, I think the core of it is identity; what we believe about ourself. Whether it’s the shame that sexuality feeds; or it’s the lies that it feeds about what makes me [uniquely] me in our culture today. Jesus is all about changing identity, not behavior.

Dave:Okay; you got to go there. What are you talking about? Identity: that’s big.

Juli:Yeah, it is big.

Dave:Are you talking about—even the gender thing, or the—

Juli:All of it.

Dave:—LGBT—all of that?

Juli:Sure; okay. I think, a few years ago, I kind of came to this conclusion: the most important Bible passage about your sex life is this one.

Dave:I think we’re going to be surprised.

Juli:Yeah, there you go.

Dave:Really?

Juli:Yeah; “If you are in Christ, you’re a new creation. Old things have passed away, and all things have become new.”

Dave:—2 Corinthians 5.

Juli:Right; I knew you’d know the address, right there.

Dave:[Verse] 17.

Juli:When you think about it, all behavior comes from identity, what we believe about ourself and what we want to believe about ourself. Jesus came to give us a new way of thinking about self.

Sexuality will get us chasing four different identities:

The first one is that I find meaning through my sexuality; self-discovery. That’s kind of what you’re getting at with the gender and LGBT. It’s like: “I can find my true self through my sexuality”; and that’s a lie. We could talk about why that’s a lie.

Ann:And they think by pursuing that: “When I discover that, and I pursue it; then, I will be happy, fulfilled. I finally have discovered, ‘Oh, this is who I really am.’”

Juli:That comes from a postmodern humanistic view. It’s not something that even existed when the Bible was being written. We’ve only begun using words like “heterosexual,” “homosexual,” and “bisexual” within the last

130 years. Those words did not exist [beforehand].

Ann:But people will say, “But that’s been going on since the creation of the world.

Dave:“The words are in the Bible: homosexual.”

Juli:Well, the words that are in the Bible actually are words that describe behavior—not identity—it’s men lying with other men.

Ann:Oh, I see what you’re saying.

Dave:Good.

Juli:So the behavior existed, but the words we use to describe a person—

Dave:—as an identity.

Juli:Yes—those were coined around the time of Sigmund Freud.

Ann:Interesting.

Juli:And then, “transgender,”—those words didn’t appear in our language until 1960/1970.

We don’t realize how new it is to be thinking about ourselves in terms of our sexual experiences or identities, because this is all we’ve ever known. So that’s the first one: is that sense of: “I need to discover who I am by my sexuality.”

Dave:So what do you say to a parent, who says, “My son” or “My daughter says they are attracted to”—male to male; female to female—or again, I’m throwing a lot in one question—or if they’re saying, “I am a boy, but I think I’m a girl,” or “…a girl; boy.”

Ann:—identifying as.

Dave:They’re saying, “That’s my identity.” As a parent, you know this; how do you articulate that to your son or daughter, who’s convinced: “Don’t tell me anything different. You’re not living in this body; I am. This is who I am.”

Juli:Yeah; boy, that’s a question we could spend a couple episodes unpacking there, Dave. I think it starts with recognizing why your child believes this and how indoctrinated we’ve been in our culture on this. It’s not just LGBT. Why do you think the average person gets married nowadays?

Dave:—gets married?—at all?

Juli:Yeah.

Ann:—to be happy.

Juli:—to be happy: “I found my soulmate.” That’s part of the postmodern culture too: it is all about my feelings. It’s about this: “…completing me.” I think it begins with understanding how indoctrinated we are in that thinking about sexuality, marriage, romance—and presenting a completely alternative biblical worldview—which again, when you hear a lot of teaching on marriage, even in the church, it’s very postmodern.

We need to go back to our roots of what the Scripture teaches on these things—not just when we’re talking about LGBT—but understanding our sexual experiences, and what the purpose of romance is, and all of that.

Ann:I think a lot of people would say, “Well, Juli, I want to know that. Where in the world do I find it?

Dave:—in her book! “Get her book.”

Ann:I was going to say, “That’s why God called you, because there aren’t very many people who are dealing with that specifically, and it’s their entire ministry.” It is for you.

Juli:Right; it is; yeah. There’s a whole chapter on “Surrendered Thinking,” which is Chapter 3. If you’ve ever written a book, Chapter 3 is like your power chapter.

Dave:It’s the turn.

Juli:It’s the most important one.

I really feel like, in a Christian’s walk in today’s day and age, that’s the most important thing: to understand how much we think, like the world thinks, about our sexuality. How far we’ve gotten away from what a biblical theology of sexuality is.

Dave:Wow.

Ann:I’m thinking of all the parents—

Dave:Well, she’s got four of them. She just [mentioned] one.

Ann:Oh, I know. Wait; let me ask you this question about this area, because parents are listening, thinking, “I want this; I want this for my kids, and I don’t know how to help them with it.”

Juli:Well, first, we have to get it. You can only take someone as far as you’ve gone in discipleship.

Ann:So you’re not just handing them your book, or a book, as a parent.

Juli:No, no.

Dave:“Go live it.”

Juli:We don’t realize how much we’ve been indoctrinated—because, in the church, if you are—I use the term, “heterosexual,” and you have a male/female marriage—you just take on a lot of the culture scripting without realizing it, because it’s not an obvious kind of affront to God’s design for sex. But we’re still thinking that way.

I think it’s critical—I’ve learned so much, over the years, of doing this ministry—of how God needed to renew my thinking. We look at the topic of surrender, like Romans 12:1,2. What’s the first thing Paul says?—is your thinking has to be transformed: “Don’t be conformed to this world.”

Ann:—”conformed to this world.” Those are my favorite verses in the Bible, because it has radically transformed me—to not be conformed—

Dave:—through your mind first.

Ann:We will be conformed to the world unless we allow Jesus to transform our minds.

Dave:We won’t know the difference if we don’t know the Word.

Juli:We won’t.

Dave:We just don’t know.

Juli:We just kind of swim in the water that we’re in, in culture.

Dave:We sort of buy it.

So what’s the other one? Identity: obviously, huge.

Juli:So the first one is “Self-discovery.”

The second one is shame. There are a lot of Christians who live in a shame identity around their sexuality. They can say to their friend or neighbor, until they’re blue in the face: “God forgives you. He no longer holds that offense against you—that abortion,” “…—that relationship,” “…—that pornography addiction.” You can tell your neighbor that. But when you ask them—you look them in the eye—“Do you believe that you’re forgiven?” “I don’t know; I think I’ll go to heaven.” But they talk as if they’re condemned to living with a cloud of shame.

Ann:Juli, I was just with a girl—she’s in her 30s—she has kids; she’s married. Just rough background in terms of rape, kidnapped—just so many things. And then, she has a sexual past of a lot of different people. A lot of it was very traumatic; before she was even 22 years old. We were together—sitting together—and she said, “I know, in my head, biblically speaking, that God loves me; but never in my life have I felt that. All I feel is shame. I feel like I can’t even approach God. I know I can, biblically—where I stand, biblically, according to the Word—but in my heart, I can’t even lift my eyes to Him because of all that’s been done to me; but all that I’ve done as well.” What would you say to that person? I’m sure you’ve had that same kind of story many times.

Juli:I’m so glad that you brought that up too; because we often feel shame, not just for what we’ve done, but what’s been done to us. If you have a history of trauma or abuse—any form of sexual assault—you probably carry around with you even messages of: “Somehow, it’s my fault,” “I deserved it. My body responded; therefore, I must have liked it,” “There’s something wrong with me.” These are all very common conclusions that we draw.

I’m thinking of your friend, who shared all that with you: “It’s not a one-time statement; it’s a trajectory that is based on this.” This is what I might say: “Do you know that you are not walking in integrity?—not because of your sexual sin—but because you don’t walk out and believe what you say you believe.”

Dave:So you’re carrying shame.

Juli:Yeah; if we truly say: “Jesus is King,” and “He died on the cross, and He rose again to forgive my sin,”—but we walk in such a way that doesn’t reflect that—we lack integrity. It’s not to add more shame, but it’s a call. I think, somehow, the enemy gets us feeling that we actually please God by keeping self-condemnation and keeping us from His presence. That is not pleasing to God. The greatest glory we can give to Him is to act in accordance with the freedom that He’s given—just that kind of challenge of—“What would it look like to walk fully in integrity of the statement: ‘I know Jesus has forgiven me’?” and “Let me walk with you. Let’s find freedom together.” And then, the process often involves uncovering the lies that are underneath that [feeling condemnation].

Ann:And that’s what we did that day: uncovering some of those lies. I’m sure there’ll be many more conversations; but when we live with them so long, we don’t see them as lies. We see them as this truth: “I’ve said it so often that, now, I’m believing the lie.” That lie has become, in my mind, the truth.

It’s crazy how we just adapt to this: “This is the way it is.” To identify it—to kind of go through it; to confess the lie that I’ve started believing about myself, even—is really an interesting thing to watch people do.

Dave:And in some ways—I don’t want to speak for Ann; maybe, she won’t even respond to this—so I’m not going to look at her when I say it. You have carried that shame from sexual abuse and the lie that: “There must be something about me that is wrong, that they did this.”

Ann:Oh, for sure.

Dave:You carried it for a long time. I didn’t even know she was carrying it into our marriage, and she did.

It’s interesting—I want you to respond—but I will add this: when you brought up 2 Corinthians 5: “I’m a new creature in Christ; the old is gone,”—when we got married, I thought that meant: “Oh, her past and abuse is done; it won’t affect anything in our marriage.

Ann:“It’s all healed.”

Dave:“It’s gone—years ago—and now, we’re new in Christ. The old’s gone; the new has come. My sexual past and background, and pornography; that’s all done. It won’t have any effect today.”

Oh, how naïve! Oh, my goodness. And again—we are new in Christ; we are redeemed—that’s all true! But if you don’t process that, it’s going to wreak havoc on your identity, your soul, your marriage; you don’t see it coming.

Ann:Juli, we were in seminary, and we start taking some classes on how to counsel people. Of course, when you take those classes, it’s all about yourself. It’s all about: I start coming home—and I had told Dave, “Hey, I wanted you to know before we get married that I’ve been sexually abused,” “ Oh, okay; are you okay?” “Yeah, I’m fine. That was in the past,”—so we get back in seminary; and suddenly—we’ve only been married two/three years?

Dave:—two to three years.

Ann:I’m crying every single night—crying for the first time; grieving—never grieving [before], being angry—and Dave is probably, like, “What is happening?”

It affected every single area of my life. I can recall where I was with different people; and by the time I was seven—it had started at four—I remember thinking, when it happened again, that time, I thought, “Oh, it’s me. There’s something wrong with me. That’s why this is happening. I’m doing something.”

We didn’t go to church; I knew nothing about God. But that shame level—it wasn’t like: “Something happened to me,”—now, it became: “Something’s wrong with me.” That’s the level of shame that you’re talking about, too, with people. It affects every single area.

Juli:Thank you for sharing that. You said something, Ann: you said, “It feels like the truth.” I think that’s an “Aha” moment for some people when they realize the truth often feels less true than the lie. That’s why it requires faith.

Ann:Yeah, that’s good.

Dave:And I then, had no idea. Again, I was naïve—and that’s on me—but I had no idea how this would affect our marriage—not just her past and what she believed about it—but then, as we were married longer and longer, my physical affection became more about sex and romance, which many wives have experienced that.

It is on us in some ways. I’m not saying every husband’s like me—I was clueless—but I wasn’t holding her, kissing her, holding hands, non-sexual touch affection we had for many years. She’s now feeling like, “Oh, when Dave touches me, it’s about sex,”—obviously, connection—”When I was touched, as a girl, that was all it was. So here I’m married to my husband, and he’s…”

Ann:So many triggers.

Dave:I had no idea that I was doing that to her. It was on me; I feel so bad. It was like—

Juli:Well, how would you know?

Dave:I didn’t know.

Juli:Yeah; how would you? What you describe is what a lot of couples go through, and they don’t have words for; so I’m thankful that you all are so transparent about it.

But let me ask you: “What were the rivers going on in your hearts at that time? The spiritual rivers of just where God was for each of you?”

Dave:My first thought is what we talked about earlier. I don’t think I knew Jesus well enough to trust Him. Again, even as we got married, we’re pretty new in Christ. We’re in full-time ministry, so we’re daily ministering to people. But to turn this area over and trust Him, I just didn’t know Him well.

Although I’d be standing on stages, encouraging people to know Jesus, I don’t think I knew Him well enough yet to really surrender, and say, “He’s good. He can be trusted with this dark area of our lives.” Here we are talking about it. Back then, we didn’t talk to anybody. It was a secret, thinking: “We’ll never share this out loud with anybody, even friends; because we don’t have any answers,” and “We’re sort of stuck here,” and “I’m not sure we’re going to ever be intimate—not just sexually—but in our marriage; because we can’t get through what you called a wall.”

It had to be, like you said, it had to be full surrender: “I want to know Jesus; I don’t want to know about Him. I want to know Him in a way that I feel comfortable to say, ‘Okay, I can…’” I preach that often: “I’m asking you to surrender. I think a lot of you’re going, ‘I can’t because I don’t know the Person you’re really asking me to surrender to.’” I get it. If you don’t understand, you’re afraid. It’s like a dad—who’s not kind—“Why would I lay my life in his hands? I don’t trust him.”

I think, for me, it became: “I got to know Jesus well enough to say, ‘Okay, I’m going to trust Him with my sexuality, and our brokenness; and then, ours together.’” Is that what you would say?

Ann:I think my river—I was all about surrender when I gave my life to Jesus—it’s like, “I’m all in.” But it’s that pocket—we’ve been referring to the sexuality part—it was so murky, and muddy, and gross. I had given it to Jesus, but I didn’t realize all that was going on in my head.

It was like I constantly believed lies. In terms of my self-talk, I was like: “You’re”—how would I say it?—”You’re unworthy, “You’re a failure,” constantly. It’s not even I [failed at something]; it’s “You are a failure. You’re not getting anything done well.” On the outside—if it looked like everything is awesome; I’m doing well in everything—“You’re a failure,” “You’re fat,” “You’re ugly,”—all the same things over and over. I wouldn’t ever tell anybody any of that, but that was my daily talk. The river was: “I love You, Jesus; but I don’t really believe what You said about me. It says I’m a new creature, and You’re loving me. I can get that in my head. I just can’t get it down here [in my heart], because I think I’m too unlovable to receive that.”

Dave:So counsel us: How are we doing?

Juli:You guys are doing great now.

Dave:It took a while.

Juli:Part of it is—you go to a marriage seminar; and back then, you would define the problem as—”Dave, you want sex; and she doesn’t, so fix us.” What I’ve learned over the years is we’ve got to get to these places of: “Why does it mean so much to you, Dave?” and “What’s happening in your heart when your sex life isn’t what you think it should be?” and “What’s going on with you, Ann? What’s underneath all that? and “Where’s God in that?”

There’s so much richness when we talk about sexuality that way, because it’s not just about sex anymore. It’s about: “What is keeping us from the love of God?” It reveals the lies we believe, the way the enemy wants to build strongholds between us and the Lord.

Ann:Juli, it’s so funny. I can remember, back in 19—I’m trying to think what year that was.

Dave:People are saying, “You’re saying 19?”—not 20-something?

Ann:It was 1989, because we started speaking with FamilyLife. It was the first time I had shared my abuse at a Weekend to Remember marriage conference as a speaker.

Juli:Wow.

Ann:Nobody was talking about it back then; nobody.

Dave:She’s a trendsetter.

Juli:She is. She’s courageous; she’s courageous.

Ann:No, I’m not. I’m just—

Dave:There really wasn’t—nobody.

Ann:Nobody.

Dave:It was like, “Aww!”

Ann:My sister was abused for a long time; I didn’t even know it for years.

Dave:—older sister.

Ann:I felt like she would say—she and I both got together; she passed when she was 45—but we both said we would go through it again—the abuse—if we could give people the hope of knowing that Jesus will set you free. I didn’t know anything but to share my story of—“This is what happened,”—”but Jesus is setting me free. It’s not a one-time thing; it takes a while. But there’s freedom in being able to verbalize what happened with somebody I can trust.”

After I was done with saying that talk, there was a line so long of women, saying, “I’ve never shared that with anybody.” It’s probably what broke your heart—and what breaks God’s heart of—“My daughters and My people are living in total captivity, and I’ve come to set them free.”

I think there’s something beautiful that God wants to do if we’ll turn our pockets inside out, of allowing Him to heal. Because I don’t know if my surrendered prayer was in that area: “God, I don’t know how to heal. I don’t know what to do with this, but I’m giving it to You.”

Juli:And when you say that, we don’t have to be specific and get it exactly right when we surrender. The beauty is that, when we give our life to God, He takes that; and He’s like, “Okay, I’m going to take you on this journey.” I’m so thankful that God doesn’t show us everything—

Ann:Me too.

Juli:—that’s un-surrendered in a moment; we would be undone.

Ann:You’re right.

Juli:But as you’re sharing, He led you. There were seasons of: “Now, it’s time to tell the story,” “Now it’s time to say these things, out loud, that you’ve been living with; and the enemy has been tormenting you,” “Now, it’s time to seek My truth on this.”

Ann:Yeah, you’re right. It’s steps. He kind of goes through baby steps, doesn’t He?

Juli:He does; He really does.

Ann:And where does He go?—right through the wound—

Juli:That’s right.

Ann:—right through the wound to the heart.

Dave:I remember, two years later—I didn’t even think about timeline—but we just started our church in 1990; I’m one of the founders. We had a weekend service and a midweek. It was at a midweek, ’91; so we’re maybe not even a year old yet. I decided—I didn’t tell my co-founder: “I’m going to share my struggle with porn,”—again, this was before digital; this is magazine-type deal.

I shared a bit of it, to say, “This is where I’ve been, and I want to help men get to freedom through this.” I’ll never forget—before I stepped off the stage, my co-founder, Steve, was at the bottom of the steps—I’m like, “Oh, boy; did I just violate something we’d never talked about?—I went somewhere. Is he going to be like, ‘Dude, you can’t share that kind of stuff; you’re a leader here’?” I remember I stepped on the bottom step; he looked at me, and he goes, “You just changed the future of this community for good.” I go, “What?” He goes, “This will no longer be a community where people hide. If one of their leaders isn’t going to hide, I think people are going to feel like they can be heard,” and “They can go to Jesus like you have.” I’m not kidding: the next month, every guy who called me wanted to meet. They’d come in, one by one; and they’d sit there. They’d poke around; I go, “Okay, I know you’re struggling with porn.” “Yeah, yeah. Can I talk to you? You said you were…”

I’ll never forget this one guy—he was the drummer in our band—I played guitar in the band. Bruce comes in—this is like three weeks later—and he’s just beating around the bush. Finally, I go, “Bruce, we’re buds, dude. I know why you’re here; you’re struggling with porn.” He goes, “No, not at all.” I go, “Come on, man; you don’t have to lie. I’ve had 50 guys say they’re struggling with porn. I know it; we can talk about it. Let’s go.”

He goes, “No; actually, I’m not at all; not at all. I’m not lying, dude. I just gave my life to Christ. And I’m like, ‘Can you help me grow?’” I’m like, “Oh, thank you!” It was like/he’s like, “Finally.”

Juli:That’s so funny.

Dave:But I thought—when she said, “All these women lined up,”—I had the same thing in this area. All these men lined up; and they were like, “Okay, can this be a safe place?—not just to share my struggle—but to get on a journey to freedom?”

Juli:Right, right.

Dave:Is that what the church is supposed to be in the Christian community?—that’s what you’re about?

Juli:Yeah; both of your stories are so powerful. What they represent is: you cannot heal in hiding. You’ll never find freedom in hiding. And if it’s like, “Oh, no; it’s me and God”; God didn’t design us to heal that way. There’s something powerful that happens when you step out into the light and you say the words. When you both spoke that, out loud, the enemy lost. Now, there was a process, then, of walking that out; but that is the first step.

And the other thing I want to say is: Ann, you shared a story of sexual trauma and abuse. Dave, you have a pornography struggle. The opposite is also true, where women are struggling with pornography. They feel like, “Well, it’s okay for guys to struggle, but where do I go as a woman?” Let me just tell you—particularly, in this younger generation—about

50 percent of women are struggling with pornography.

Dave:Fifty percent.

Juli:—about, yeah; in the generation of teenager—

Ann:It keeps going up.

Juli:—teenager to 35—it’s a pretty significant struggle.

And then, for men, about maybe one out of every five men have been sexually abused; so that’s 20 percent. Even with the Me Too movement, women felt more free to say, “Hey, I’ve experienced this.” But there’s a lot of shame in men, who have been sexually abused. It’s not just always the stereotypical: “Women struggle with this,” or “Men with this.”

Dave:Right; definitely.

Juli:But when communities can be those safe places to say, “This is a secret thing I don’t know how to bring before the Lord.” “Hey, this is a place to bring it.” That’s where we start to see real transformation and healing.

Dave:I mean, if somebody’s listening right now—it’s that woman or that man; husband, wife—whatever—he’s a single person; whoever’s listening or watching/hope you’re watching—”What would you say to them, if they’re like, ‘I have this secret in the dark’?”

Ann:Yeah, they haven’t confessed it to anybody.

Dave:You just said, “When it’s in the dark, the dark wins; when it comes into light, healing starts,”—and by the way, that’s James 5: “Confess your sins to one another that you may be— forgiven?”—No—“…healed.”

Ann:—“…healed.”

Dave:The forgiveness is vertical, but the healing is horizontal. They’re thinking, “I’ve never told anybody, and I don’t think I should.” What would you say?

Juli:Yeah; I would just say, “Take that one step. Go to somebody you trust—whether it’s a good friend, somebody who’s discipling you, a counselor—and say it out loud. I just interviewed somebody from my podcast who had this kind of story.

Dave:Java with Juli; Java with Juli—go listen to it.

Juli:She made this statement; she said, “Twenty seconds of profound courage changed the course of my life.”

Ann:Ooh, that’s good: “Twenty seconds.”

Juli:—twenty seconds.

Dave:It is a courageous, really courageous step.

Juli:It is.

Dave:Twenty seconds.

Juli:And you don’t have to do it perfectly. Just get it out; and then, God will show you the next steps after that.

Ann:I envision a chain being broken when you do that—to confess it out loud—because Satan loves everything in the dark.

Dave:Have you read anything about some of the college revivals happening?

Juli:Yeah, it’s phenomenal.

Dave:Do you know how they start?

Juli:No.

Dave:I watched an interview with Jennie Allen—and we’ve had both Jennie and J.P. Pokluda on—and she said, “We didn’t really have much of a plan besides we were asked to come speak.” I may be getting something wrong, but it tended to be: “I was on stage; I felt like, ‘I need to tell them to tell their darkest secret to somebody right now.’” She goes, “The floodgates opened. People, who are turning to each other, saying something, out loud, they’ve never said to anybody.”

Ann:—crying.

Dave:God started meeting people. People were on stage, “I want to get baptized.” They were like, “There’s a pond over there.” The first one I think was Texas A&M or something.

Ann:It was in the dark; and J.P. was like,—

Dave:—“Can we go over there?”

Ann:—“Are there alligators?”

Dave:They just started jumping in. And then, Ohio State just baptized 2,000 people. They all say the same thing: the thing that seems to unlock something is the secret that I’ve been holding: “I’m going to tell somebody.” It’s just what you just said.

Ann:Let me just say this, too—maybe, you’re listening; and maybe, you’re a woman who’s struggling with pornography, or struggling in any area; or a man—“Now, I feel like, ‘Should I tell my spouse? Because now my secret burden is going to be their burden; and it just going to create so much strife, and mistrust, and all kinds of chaos. Is it worth it?’”

Juli:Yes, it is. But I’m going to qualify that: they often should not be the first person you tell.

Dave:Tell somebody else first?—like a brother to a brother and a sister to a

sister?

Juli:—or a counselor.

The reason why is because, when you tell your spouse—and their the first person you tell—it’s often cathartic, like, “Oh, I got that off my chest”; and now, your spouse is left holding that. But when you’ve already told somebody else, and started the healing journey, you can go to your spouse, and clearly say, “I know this is our burden together. I know this is breaking your heart, but I also want you to know that I’m already taking steps towards what it looks like to pursue wholeness.” Then, you can pursue wholeness together.

But if you’re just viewing it as: “I’ve got to confess,” “This is cathartic; I can get this off my chest and move on,”—and not get help—you really are leaving your spouse feeling like they’re holding something very heavy, alone.

Ann:And so: “Get a plan in action.” You’re saying, though, too.

Juli:And your plan can be as simple as: “I confess to my brother,” or “…sister in Christ,” “I have an appointment with a counselor,” or “I’m getting in a group to address this,” or “I found a counselor for us to go see together.” That—yeah, it’s going to blow things up—often, it does; and there’s a long road to recovery. But intimacy means no secrets. Same with the Lord—if we keep things compartmentalized: “I’ll give all of who I am except for this piece,”—we’re not going to have intimacy. And the same thing is true in marriage.

Ann:—and freedom!

Dave:I’m just thinking, 40 years ago now/35 years ago, the first person I told about my porn struggle—we did it wrong!—totally.

Ann:—Ann; me.

Dave:I told Ann. I felt just what you said—I just almost vomited it out—”I finally said it; I’m free now; I can move on.” I look over; and she’s just crying. We wrote about this in Vertical Marriage—a couple chapters on that very thing—but she was crushed; and then, angry. It blew up.

Ann:And then, I didn’t trust you.

Dave:And I hadn’t told a man yet. I was going to—but I thought, “Oh, I should tell her first. She’s my soulmate; she’s my partner.” In some ways, that’s somewhat true; but I didn’t realize I was just really doing that for me—it wasn’t for her—I wanted freedom. I went, “Okay; we’re good, right?” And she’s like, “I just now—you just laid a weight—I got to carry this now?” I’m like, “Yeah, I don’t have it anymore. Here you go.”

Ann:I think, if it was a one-time thing, it’d be different. And you’ve dealt with this on your podcast, Juli; so we can point people toward you. But when—it’s usually not an overnight fix—like, “Oh, I told her; now, I’m great. I’m not going to be tempted or look again.” When it became like, “Okay; now, this is my pattern,”—I’m hearing this often—I don’t even know what to do. By the time he tells me, for the fourth time, well—

Dave:Do we have to keep talking about me? Let’s move on to another husband and another struggle.

Ann:I think, in your podcast, you deal with, if a spouse is really struggling how to get help; they shouldn’t be in it alone.

Juli:No, no. And the spouse needs help for their own journey of processing the trauma of that; and “What’s true?” and “How do I know if I trust…”—and all the insecurities that come with that.

Dave:“What do you say to”—because when you were talking earlier about surrender—I know we got two more identity traps we got to get to.

Ann:I know; I was going to say—

Juli:This is just Chapter 2.

Dave:I’m going to get there; but I had this thought earlier: “So you’re surrendering your sexuality, yet you keep blowing it—whatever it is—’I surrendered this; but here I am again.’” Again, like you said, earlier—it could be three months—”I haven’t sinned in three months in this area.” It could be six months; but “Here I am again. I thought I surrendered. I didn’t, or did I? Do I re-surrender?”—that kind of thing.

I think that’s the journey for a lot of people; and especially, in marriages. Like Ann said, “Seriously, you’re going to confess again? How many times do I have to hear this confession to believe that you really surrendered it?”

Juli:Yeah; boy, good question.

Dave:There’s 18 questions in that.

Ann:I was pointing people to the Java with Juli. But you put her on the spot.

Juli:Let me just briefly address that. In terms of our relation with God, I have that experience all the time, Dave.

Dave:—in other areas.

Juli:Yeah; for me, pride is a huge battle; I mean, huge.

Ann:Me too, Juli. This is my year of killing the pride.

Juli:And so I surrender it. I feel like I’m in a place of surrender; and then, a few weeks later, it pops up again.

Dave:What’s pride look like for you?

Juli:Now, we’re going to get in my stuff.

Dave:You don’t seem like a very prideful person.

Ann:Please! Yes! Let’s put the camera on Juli!

Dave:Let’s go; counselors never get counseled.

Juli:That will be the next book; there you go!

Dave:That’s the book you two should write together. You just said you both struggle with pride.

Juli:There we go. Oh, my goodness.

Dave: “The pride girls.”

Juli:Yeah, we could go there; that’s a whole other conversation though.

Dave:Yeah, okay.

Juli:But regardless of what it is, some people struggle with being honest. And so we tell one lie, like, “Lord, I surrender this.” Does that mean you’re never going to lie again? It’s going to be an ongoing battle. And through the power of the Holy Spirit, and the process of surrender, it becomes less a battle. You become more aware of it; you know how to guard yourself against it.

And sexuality, particularly when you’re talking about some of the addictive elements of sexuality and pornography, it’s a process. The fact that you continue to struggle—or even, at times, fall back into it—doesn’t mean that you haven’t surrendered, because surrender is ongoing.

Dave:But let me ask this—I got to press in one more—”Do you think all sins are the same?” or “Do you think there’s something uniquely different about sexual sin compared to other sins?” I think, even the New Testament would tell you, when you sin sexually, you sin against your own body. So there seems to be—again, I’ve thought about this, theologically, many times—there seems to be a deeper issue with sexuality sin than pride, or not telling the truth every day. Again, I’m not saying those—all sins are very—

Juli:First of all—as [you’re] a pastor—all sins, in terms of us violating the righteousness of God, are equally heinous.

Dave:Right.

Juli:When you look at what Jesus said in the Sermon of the Mount, He took the worst of sin: “It says, ‘Don’t murder your brother”; but if you hate your brother—you call him a fool—that’s like murder.” Jesus is sort of leveling the playing field in terms of our understanding of judging sin. And then, it’s interesting—when you look at the seven things that God hates in Proverbs—you probably know them, because you’re a pastor; but none of them are sexual.

Dave:You’re right.

Juli:A few of them are related to pride, but we have to look at 1 Corinthians 6, and say, “There’s something profound there when Paul says, ‘When you sin sexually, you sin against your own body.’” Our sexuality is so integrated into everything of who we are, even the cells of our body and our brain wiring, that there is often greater consequence with our sexual sin.

Ann:That’s a good way to say it.

Juli:That hurts other people, but also hurts us. People who’ve looked at pornography over the years—you can be fully redeemed, forgiven, cleansed, surrendered that—but you’ll probably continue to battle those images popping up when you don’t want them anymore. The way we’re wired is that our sexuality can be a profound blessing—or when it’s used against us in the term of abuse and assault; or when we choose to sin sexually—there’s echoes of it that we continue to walk with. That’s how I would answer that. But you were the pastor, Dave.

Dave:That’s one debated over centuries/over decades. There does seem to be even—have you ever heard this term, “soul ties”?—if you have sex with somebody, outside of your marriage, before or after; whatever—your soul is sort of tied to them—because sex is soulish in nature. It’s not just physical—it’s not just emotional, spiritual—there’s a soul connection at the deepest level. Have you ever heard that? And what do you think?

Juli:I have heard of it.

Dave:I’m sure you have.

Juli:I don’t know if I’m a big fan of that term. I think that’s sort of New Age; but we do know, biologically and neurologically, that there is dopamine released; and oxytocin that bond you to someone. So I think there are things to work through in terms of confession and letting go. It’s a profound experience; there’s no such thing as casual sex.

Dave:Yeah, boom! What do you mean? I know what you mean, but I want people to hear that; because so much of our culture says, “Oh, casual sex: no big deal.”

Ann:“It’s just the body; it’s no big deal.”

Juli:It’s never just the body. It always has profound impact on us, even at a neurological level. I think what Scripture is telling us is: “Take it very seriously.”

Ann:And “Be protective, because it really does affect us.”

Okay; we’ve hit two.

Dave:We have a lot more to cover. Okay; talk about—is it performance?

Juli:It’s performance.

Dave:What’s that mean?

Juli:We get to go to another identity level here:

With performance, I’m really more talking about the opposite of shame, which is sort of the Pharisaical [goal]: “I’ve done it right. I can earn God’s favor—by behaving sexually,” “By saying, ‘No,’ to sin, I can earn God’s love.” I think a lot of people, who grew up in a Christian home—this is one that I really identify with—was learning that—

Dave:Does purity culture enter into that?

Juli:Yes, very much so. And that I’m a better person because I didn’t sin, sexually: “I’m a virgin; I saved sex for marriage.”

Ann:And then, a little other piece comes in, which is called “pride.”

Juli:There you go! There you go. I knew we’d hit on pride, right?

Ann:Yeah.

Juli:I think purity culture in there for sure. But also, you see this playing out; for example, you have a husband and wife. One of them has a sexual past; the other one doesn’t, feels self-righteous, even like, “Why did you bring this into our marriage? I didn’t bring anything into our marriage”; you see that. But also, in church culture, I think the way the church talks about—for example, LGBT communities, or even people who are prostitutes or sex workers—it’s almost like they’re the untouchables, like, “We do it right. We’re good and righteous, and they’re unrighteous.”

God has really confronted me, in my heart, as I teach on this, bringing up the story that He told about the Pharisee and the tax collector coming to the temple. The Pharisee prayed: “Oh, God, I thank You that I’m not like other people. I fast two times a week,” or whatever. I’m putting that in modern-day language of: “God, I’m so thankful that I’m not like these other people. I’ve been married to my spouse for 30 years. I’ve kept sex in marriage. I don’t struggle with pornography.” And we even thank God—the Pharisee—”Thanks, God; I thank You that I’m not like this other person.”

Ann:It even reminds me of the prodigal son; and the older brother: “I’ve done everything right.”

Juli:Yeah; there’s always two people in Jesus’s stories. There’s the one who thinks that they have to earn God’s love, and they’ve earned it through behavior. And there’s the person who also thinks they have to earn God’s love, but know that they failed. And Jesus always says, “The one who’s on their face, confessing and repenting, is closer to the kingdom of God.”

The performance trap is: “If I don’t do these things, then I’m acceptable to God; and He sees me in a better light than He sees the ‘sinners.’” I think this has to be a real shift in individual hearts. It’s part of the surrender process—but also, corporately, as a church—a posture of humility; of recognizing our own brokenness: how far away we are from God’s holiness; and how dependent we are on Him, which really gives us a different posture of grace and compassion when we talk about these issues in relationships, or even, as we engage in culture.

Ann:Juli, I remember, in my 20s, we came on staff with Cru. I remember Bill Bright speaking. He would do this often—where somebody had fallen in sin, a well-known name—and every time that would happen, I thought, “Oh, Bill’s going to get in here; and he’s going to condemn this guy; or warn us.” And every single time, he said/he would say, “Apart from God’s grace, that would be me. Apart from God’s grace, I could fall tomorrow.” And I’m like, “No, you wouldn’t Bill; come on! No, you wouldn’t! We know you.”

But I think he really believed it; and I think it’s true for all of us: “Apart from His grace, that could be me, as the prostitute on the street.” It gives you a different eye for them and a different compassion instead of that judgmental piece; that man, we so easily throw that out.

Juli:And one of the things that I’ve learned, through years and years of this ministry, is the stories behind these labels. When you talk to individuals—you talk to the person who’s transitioning gender; you talk to the person who has been a prostitute—you hear the story of where they came from. It becomes very real of the brokenness that led there, and the grace of God that I didn’t experience the kinds of things that they experienced; but also, knowing that my heart is just as wicked as anybody’s heart.

Ann:Me too.

Juli:That’s an identity trap with sexuality that we often don’t recognize. But I think really flavors, even how we interact with our kids, or the next generation, or just our neighbors.

Dave:Do you think there’s a, because you do this every day, I mean, you’ve been living in this world thinking about this sexual topic, which a lot of us don’t spend a lot of time in this area. Do you think when there’s a dysfunction sexually, whether it’s a struggle that they can’t win, or transitioning genders—any of those areas—do you think—I’ll put a percentage on it—“Do you think, 100 percent of the time, there’s something broken in there? If you dig in, you’ll go, ‘Oh,’—like you just said: ‘I pointed to…’ —is it always?”

Juli:Well, it always is. And it’s with us too.

Dave:Even if you don’t.

Juli:Oh, yeah. I often make this statement: “We are all sexually-broken,”—all.

Dave:Come on; not most?

Juli:—all!

Ann:—except for Jesus. That would be it.

Juli:Yeah, we all have—

.

Ann:I don’t know if that’s depressing or encouraging.

Juli:It’s probably both.

Ann:Yeah.

Dave:Yeah; right.

Juli:But it’s leveling—in that—“Have you believed lies about sex?” “Have you been wounded?” “Have you acted out sexually or had immoral sexual thoughts?” “Have you ever objectified people, sexually, or been objectified?”

Ann:—all.

Juli:Okay, all; we’re all there.

Ann:When we were in seminary—it was just the wives—this was going to be a really hard class for me, because we were bringing in a man who was in prison for abusing some little girls. He has been sentenced for so many years, and they were allowing him to come to speak to our class. I was just starting to deal with my own stuff; so I’m like, “This is going to be so triggering for me.”

It happened, just as you said, Juli, we started asking him questions about his life, growing up. The abuse he endured, sexually, was so horrific that I sat in the class and just cried. I did think, “If we don’t deal with our past sexual trauma, it will definitely deal with us along the way somewhere.” It gave me compassion, of like, “Wow; there’s always a story behind the story.”

Juli: There is.

Dave:Can you win, sexually, without dealing with the stuff—

Juli:No.

Dave:—in the past?

Juli:No, because you’re not surrendered.

Dave:Yeah; I was at a conference just recently. One of the guys on stage just told his porn story. I don’t know—the guy just—boom! He’s actually in the band—and blah, blah, blah—in his marriage and how it affected him. He was sort of addicted. The conclusion was: “One day, in the car, I realized I’m going to lose everything. I repented, and told God, ‘I’m going to surrender my sexuality, and we’re good now.’”

Now, if I’d known the guy, I would’ve gone up; go, “Are you really good? Did you ever deal with the root of it?” There’s a root; there’s something there. Maybe he did; maybe, he just didn’t add that to the story. But I remember I had this skeptical thought, “If you didn’t get to the root, you are controlling your behavior a little better; but eventually, that head’s going to raise up, and you’re going to find yourself falling again unless…” Am I right? You’ve got to get to underneath what’s going on?

Juli:Yeah; you’re absolutely right.

Dave:Finally, I’m right—

Ann:Good job, hon!

Dave:—about something.

Ann:Yes, that’s right.

Juli:I think that’s the danger, honestly, of most of the testimonies that we hear about sexuality are 20 minutes. It makes it sound like: “I confess my affair. We went to counseling; we’re good.” When you hear the longer versions of these stories, they are so messy; and God’s in the mess. But it is not linear—it’s not like, “Oh, I confessed; and it was all great since then,”—it was: “Wow, we had to trudge through some really hard things.”

Ann:That’s reassuring—I think for listeners/for us to hear—I know, with my sexual abuse, I felt like, after six years, I’d get triggered by something else. And that meant to me, like, “Oh, there’s something else that God wants to heal.” And I’m like, “Really, Lord? We’re not done yet?!” But He’s like, “No, I love you so much. I’m not going to do it all at once; I need to take bits at a time.” That’s what it felt like, but it was so gracious of Him. I would’ve liked to have been—don’t we all want it to be overnight?—a feeling and a fix? And I’m not saying God can’t do that; but generally speaking, it takes a while.

Juli:I remember asking somebody, who had full-on sexual addiction and this long recovery process, who now is in ministry: “Why do you think God takes so long?” He talked about the intimacy that’s formed on that journey. God could just zap you—and the memories are gone; the addiction’s gone—but the process of recovery means inviting Him into all those memories, and all that temptation, and all the wounds. That’s where intimacy is formed.

I can’t tell you how many people—you asked for stories—I can’t tell you how many people have said to me: “I would never want to go back and repeat what happened. But I’m also so thankful it did. because I wouldn’t know God the way I know Him.”

Ann:Yes, out of our desperation and need.

Dave:And yet, we want to know God like that without the pain. People come up to us, sometimes: “We want your marriage”; like, “Okay, you don’t want the trauma that got us here.”

I want to ask one last thing about performance; I still got that in my mind. Why is it—at least, my awareness of watching us, as Christians, that we highlight our sexual purity—that we’re winning in this area to such a level that we’re performing. Like you said earlier: “We’re here”; and we judge others who aren’t.

Why do we do that with this area? We could be winning, sexually—surrendered, sexually—and yet, be lying; be mean to people—all these other things—and think we’re good. We didn’t even talk about the other stuff. Even when we sat down for pre-marriage counseling: “You having sex?” “No.” “Okay, good.” They didn’t say: “Hey, are you cheating on your taxes?” “Are you a man of your word?”—they didn’t even ask that; it is like, “Is your promise/is it good?” “But you’re not having sex; okay, you’re good.” You know what I’m saying? We highlight it to such an importance—and again, it is important—but have we done that? Have we made it the ultimate?

Juli:I think we have; I really do. It’s a good question; it’s a good observation.

Dave:See, I got another good question; huh?

Juli:There you go.

Dave:Ding, ding; I’m winning today.

Ann:You’re so funny!

Juli:I think we see it as a pass/fail test.

Ann:Oh, that’s—

Juli:We don’t see it as a progression of surrender or discipleship. We look only at behavior. Nobody asks you about your attitude towards your spouse with sex, or about how you think about your sexuality. It’s all: “Did you do this?” “Did you not do this?” And so it’s become kind of a behavior litmus test. Even with parents: “Did I pass as a parent or fail?”

Dave:—”based on how my kids are behaving.”

Juli:Right! Yes.

Ann:Juli, I’m so impressed with how smart you are. You know this area. Honestly, isn’t it crazy how—

Dave:—she takes all my dumb questions; and she turns them to something good.

Juli:No!

AnnYour questions are great.

Juli:They are good questions. I’ve been studying this for 13 years.

Ann:—but still.

Juli:If you studied anything for 13 years, you learn. But honestly, really, if God calls you to something, He gives you what you need. I just am dependent on Him to—

Ann:That’s really good.

Juli:—give me wisdom, not for me, but for Christians who are so—

Dave:Oh, what a gift you are. You are a gift.

Juli:—struggling.

Ann:We’ve only hit our—

Dave:— three out of four.

Juli:That’s right.

Ann:—our identity traps.

Dave:We have relationship left. What’s that mean?

Juli:

Relationship is the identity lie that I am only somebody if somebody loves me. A lot of this, I think even can play off of our attachment wounds, growing up, where let’s say you didn’t have a good relationship with your dad; and as a woman, then you believe: “I need to have a man who affirms me,” or “…who loves me,”—all different iterations of this.

But it is the lie that I become valuable because: “Somebody

notices me,” “Somebody loves me,” “Somebody wants to spend

their life with me.” Romance, marriage—that’s all a gift—but it

was never intended to be who we are and to complete us.

Ann:I wonder what percentage of marriages fall into that.

Dave:What?

Ann:This whole relationship trap, of thinking, “I’m going to find this through them. It will heal the wound of this past.”

Juli:—and singles. Even going through this book with the pilot study, one woman, who was married, talked about the pressure that she felt to get plastic surgery because: “I need my husband to want me and to see me is beautiful. I don’t know who I am if I don’t have that.”

But with singles, the prospect of being single for another year, and having people ask you: “Are you dating somebody?” “Have you found someone?” Every time you say, “No”; it’s like, “No one has chosen me.” This goes deep for a lot of people and can really be a place where—“If God is good, He’d bring me someone; because then, I could be somebody,”—instead of seeing marriage as the gift that it is, on top, of the completion of who we are in Christ.

Ann:Boy, that’s huge.

Juli, what haven’t we hit that you’re like—

Dave:That was going to be my next question. I want to ask it; so you say, “Hey, that was a good question.” Is there something—

Ann:Welcome to my life!

Dave:Is there something we haven’t covered?

Juli:There’s a lot. I don’t know.

Dave:Seriously?

Juli:That is only two chapters of the book.

Dave:That is amazing. We have talked—I don’t know how long, but a long time—and we’ve only covered two out of what?—nine chapters?—ten chapters?

Ann:—eleven.

Dave:I don’t remember.

Juli:How many are there?—eight? I think it’s eight chapters.

Ann:It’s eight?

Juli:Yeah, yeah.

Dave:Give us one we should hit.

Ann:You know what? That’s going to make people buy this book. It should be in every person’s library. So Juli’s book is called Surrendered Sexuality. I’ve just said this before, but I’m going to say it again: “Every person should have this in their library; because it’s a great resource that every single person needs, I think.”

Dave:Oh, yeah; wherever you get your books, go get a bunch. Don’t get just one. This is the kind of book that you don’t just read for yourself. I think parents need it; man, what a great thing for a church.

Juli:Yeah, I hope it doesn’t stay in people’s libraries.

Ann:Yeah, they need it in their library; but you should be going through it. I’m thinking this would be a great book to go through with women—for me, to go through—I’m thinking of some women in my mind, right now, to go through: talk about deep conversations.

Juli:That’s really why I wrote it; because I wanted people to have a tool to go through in community, or in mentoring and discipling, of: “What is it—step by step look like—to surrender this piece of my life to Jesus?”

Dave:That’s my next question. I have a question that we’re going to save for the monthly donors.

Ann:—monthly partners.

Dave:Yeah. If you’re like, “I want to know what this question is,”—you just brought it up—I’m going to tease you: “It has something to do with sexual discipleship.” Become a monthly partner—just go to FamilyLifeToday.com; hit the “Donate” button;, start giving—and you can hear the rest of this conversation.

Ann:Hey, thanks for watching. If you like this episode,—

Dave:You better like it.

Ann:—just hit that “Like” button.

Dave:And we’d like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the “Subscribe,”—I can’t say the word, “subscribe,”—hit the “Subscribe” button. I don’t think I can say this word!

Ann:I can: “Subscribe.”

Dave:Look at that! You say it so easy. “Subscribe”; there he goes.

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