I Thought I Married the Wrong Person… | Gary Chapman

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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A Simple Guide to a Better Marriage

Guest:Gary Chapman

Release Date:July 15, 2025

Gary:I didn’t even think about: “How do you solve conflicts without arguing?” So all we did was argue. The thought began to run through my mind: “I think I married the wrong person; we’re too different.” And one day, I finally said to God, “I’ve done everything I know to do, and she won’t listen to me.” As soon as I said that, there came to my mind a visual image of Jesus washing the feet of His disciples. I heard God say to me, “That’s the problem in your marriage; you do not have the attitude of Christ towards your wife.”

Dave:Okay, we’ve got Gary Chapman back in the studio; it’s always a good day.

Ann:It’s always a good day. And today, we’re going to talk about marriage. Who better to talk about marriage?

Dave:Nobody better in the world. I was going to say, “…the country”; “…in the world.”

Ann:I would agree; I would agree.

Dave:We get the privilege, Gary, of having you back. And you know what? You won’t believe this; just a minute ago, I had a song come to my head—

Ann:What?!

Dave:—about you and your love languages. They always come to my head when I’m in the restroom; I don’t know why. So here we go.

Ann:Wait! I didn’t know about this.

Dave:I didn’t know it either until—

Ann:You haven’t even been practicing anything.

Dave:Usually, I spend an evening or something. I spent five seconds on this.

Ann:Gary, has anyone written a song to you?

Gary:There’s a song.

Ann:There’s a song?!

Dave:—there is probably a love-language song; this will never be it. This is an old Three Dog Night melody. I was in the—anyway, I’m not going to tell you where I was—but I had this thought [singing]: “Five is a love language number that we need to know.” You know that tune?

Gary:I like that tune; I like it.

Dave:[Singing] “Four is not as good as five. It’s a love language that makes you satisfied.” Anyway, you ever heard that song? The real song is [singing] “One is the loneliest number that you’ll ever do.”

Ann:Okay, wait; Gary is saying there’s an actual love-language song. Who did it? Gary, do you remember?

Gary:I don’t know—I think it’s on my website—I haven’t listened to it in a long time.

Dave:Well, I’ll give you a new one—I’m going to come up with one—a real one, not a copy of a—

Ann:You might be embarrassed by it, Gary, but we’ll think it’s cool.

Dave:Yeah, that’s cool.

So we probably will get a little love language in this: this new book, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage: Quick, Practical Insights Every Couple Needs to Thrive.

Ann:—by Gary Chapman and John Hinkley.

Dave:We’ll have a copy of this in our show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com. Okay; what’s this one? How many books have you written?

Gary:They tell me over 60.

Dave:Really?

Ann:Wow!

Gary:Find it hard to believe. But when I go to my marriage conferences—which I do on Saturdays 12 times a year with Moody Publishers; they set them up all over the country—

Ann:So you’re still speaking once a month?

Gary:Well, more than that; this is just the Saturday conferences.

Ann:That’s just through Moody.

Gary:They bring all my books; I look at them, and think, “When did I write all these books?”

Dave:I bet.

Ann:But they’re so good; they’re so practical. Even this one—it’s just good—I think everybody is going to benefit from your wisdom.

Gary:Well, this one is kind of a compilation of a lot of different things from different topics on marriage that I’ve dealt with in other places somewhat. These are short chapters.

Ann:I like that.

Gary:I found out, in today’s world, people like short chapters. They’re short chapters; they’re on specific things. I think any married couple, whether they just got married or been married a long time, will find this book to be very helpful: a lot of practical stuff.

Ann:For sure.

Dave:One hundred percent agree—we read through it; studied it—and you’re right; they’re short, and they’re around all different topics. I would give this to a pre-married couple, for sure; a newly-married couple; but [even] a couple like us in our 40th year—

Ann:For sure.

Dave:—45th year—

Ann:—45th! Whoo!

Dave:—this month. What are we doing?

Ann:Gary, how many years have you been married?

Gary:Sixty-three.

Ann:Yes!

Gary:Now, Karolyn says that’s impossible; because she’s only 49.

Ann:Tell us about your marriage; because I’m always surprised—it seems like you’re probably perfect in every way—but your beginning journey; some people have probably heard it, but many haven’t—take us back to what it was like when you guys were struggling, because you did struggle.

Gary:We did. No one ever told me the truth about falling in love.

Dave:What’s that?

Gary:I was always told: “If you’ve got the real thing, it’ll last forever,”—those feelings. And now, we know—we’ve studied it—average is two years. We come down off that high.

Ann:So if you’re listening, and you’re off that high; that’s normal.

Gary:That’s normal; absolutely. I didn’t know that.

Dave:I think ours lasted about six months.

Ann:Ours was six months.

Gary:I didn’t know that.

My wife and I dated two years before we got married. So pretty soon after the honeymoon I started coming down. Then, we had disagreements. When I was in love, we never had a fight. Anything she wanted to do was fine with me.

I came down off that; and then, I didn’t even think about: “How do you solve conflicts without arguing?” So all we did was argue. I knew I was right, and she knew she was right; and we tried to convince each other. I remember one night it was pouring down rain outside, and we got into an argument. In the middle of the argument, my wife walked out the front door, slammed the door and walked out in the rain. And I thought, “This is bad. When a woman walks in the rain, it’s bad.”

Ann:What were you fighting about? Do you even remember?

Gary:I don’t even remember.

Ann:You don’t?

Gary:I don’t remember the topic—but it was almost everything—because she didn’t do things the way I thought they ought to be done; I didn’t do things the way she thought they ought to be done.

I’m glad God allowed us to go through that, even though I was really very frustrated; because two weeks after we got married, I enrolled in seminary to study to be a pastor. Here I am, studying to be a pastor; and now, I’ve lost those feelings; and now, we’re arguing. And then, I had negative feelings toward her. The thought began to run through my mind: “I think I married the wrong person; we’re too different.” And then, I was questioning God; because I said to God, “Look, before I got married, I prayed: ‘Don’t let me marry her if she’s not the right one, and You let me do it.’” I’m getting upset with God.

Ann:So now, it’s God’s fault too.

Gary:Yeah; now, it’s God’s fault. Obviously, I was really so frustrated; because I was thinking to myself, “There is no way I can get up in front of people, somewhere down the line, and start preaching to people and be this miserable in my marriage. I can’t do that.”

One day, I finally said to God, “I don’t know what else to do. I’ve done everything I know to do, and she won’t listen to me.” As soon as I said that, there came to my mind a visual image of Jesus, on His knees, washing the feet of His disciples. I heard God say to me, “That’s the problem in your marriage; you do not have the attitude of Christ towards your wife.” It hit me like a ton of bricks, because I remember what Jesus said when He stood up: “Having washed their feet, He said to them, ‘You call me “Teacher” and “Lord”; and you are right. But in My kingdom, the leader serves. Now, you go serve others the way I’m serving you.’”

I knew that was not my attitude. My attitude was: “If you just listen to me, we can have a good marriage”; and she wouldn’t listen to me. I wept; I wept. I broke down and wept ;and I said, “God, forgive me. With all my study in theology, I’m missing the whole point. Please give me the attitude of Christ.” In retrospect, it’s the greatest prayer I ever prayed about my marriage; because God changed my heart.

Ann:Did it take a while for you to begin serving, for you to have a different heart toward Karolyn?

Gary:It did; but that was a turning point, a huge turning point. There were three questions I started asking her after this that really turned my marriage around. They’re simple questions:

The first question is: “Honey, what can I do to help you?” “What can I do to help you?”

The second question: “How could I make your life easier?”

The third question: “How could I be a better husband?”

Ann:These are such good questions, Gary.

Dave:Well, here’s what I know: she knows the answer to all three of those. Every wife does.

Gary:She answered all of them fluently.

When I started doing those things—it didn’t turn around overnight—but within three months, she started asking me those three questions.

Ann:Was she surprised when you started asking her those things?

Gary:She had to be.

Ann:Yeah, I would think so! But I bet she liked it.

Gary:“What happened to this guy?” “What happened to this guy?”

Ann:But it changed her too.

Gary:It changed her too, because she realized that it was going one way there for a while; and then, she started turning it around. I often say in my marriage conferences: “I think this is what God intended, that we serve each other. God didn’t create marriage to make us miserable; He created us for each other. If I have that attitude toward her, and she has that attitude toward me—and we’re trying to help each other—we are a team. That’s what God had in mind: we’re a team.”

Ann:And it goes against our sinful selfish nature.

Dave:I was going to say, “That’s not our bent.” Our bent is: ‘You serve me,’—

Gary:Yeah, absolutely.

Dave:—“’You meet my needs; I have needs.’”

Gary:Absolutely.

Ann:I made popcorn last night.

Dave:She did; it was good.

Ann:Dave was outside on the lanai, out in the patio.

Dave:I don’t know: “What are you going to say about this?”—that I should have made it?

Ann:No, no; I made it. I remember I was halfway out; and I thought, “ I should get him a drink too”; and I didn’t want to, Gary. In my heart, I’m like, “I just want to go out there, and I want to sit down; and want to keep studying.” But—

Dave:She asked me; I remember you said, “You want me to get you a Coke or Coke Zero?”

Ann:“What can I get you to drink?”

Dave:“Coke Zero.”

Ann:And so we may not—

Dave:I never moved; I didn’t serve you at all; I just said, “Thank you!”

Ann:I’m just saying our natural bent isn’t to serve; but because Christ lives in us, through the power of the Holy Spirit, we can go against our feelings and do the right thing and serve one another.

Gary:Yeah, absolutely.

Ann:It’s out of obedience to Christ.

Gary:Absolutely.

Ann:And it glorifies Him. It’s like an act of worship, even if our spouse doesn’t deserve it.

Gary:Absolutely. I had a woman ask me one time: “Can you love your husband if you hate him?” I had to give some thought to that, but I’m convinced you can.

Ann:What do you mean?

Gary:Because in the Bible, love is not basically a feeling; it’s an attitude. An attitude is/an attitude of love is: “I choose to look out for your interest. I choose to do whatever I can to help you become the person you believe God wants you to be.” We choose our attitudes; we don’t choose our emotions.

Ann:That’s so good.

Gary:I didn’t choose my negative feelings toward my wife.

Ann:Don’t you want to write down everything he says? “I want to write that down and remember it.” That’s so good though.

Gary:And so I said, “Yes, if you hate him, it means you’ve been hurt,”—et cetera—“Those are natural feelings that you have. But you can say to God, ‘Lord, You know how I feel about my husband, and You know the way He’s treated me; but I know You love him.”

God does! The Scriptures say—Romans Chapter 5, verse 5—“The love of God is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit.” [The attitude can be]: “I’m married to him. I’m opening my heart to You. You pour your love in, and I’ll be Your agent for loving him.” We choose that, and we have all the help of God to do it once we make that choice.

Dave:I think, sometimes—what you’re saying is—we actually think she or he’s our enemy. And there is an enemy.

Ann:—and the problem.

Gary:There is an enemy; it’s not your spouse. We say this at the Weekend to Remember at Family Life. I learned it, as an engaged guy, when we were going to the conference—engaged.

Ann:—from Dennis Rainey.

Dave:—from Dennis Rainey. And yet, there’s times in the marriage I’m like, “Nope, she’s my enemy. I know I have another enemy; but right now, she’s saying and doing things that…” It’s like, “No, I have to fight that enemy and love this one, whom I don’t like right now.”

Gary:Absolutely. And God can give us power to do that. And remember: Jesus said, “Love your enemies. If your enemy is hungry, feed him.”

I had a lady say to me in my office: “Gary, my husband had an affair. He moved out and moved in with the lady. I was so hurt and angry,”—and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera—”I read that Romans 12 passage, where God says, ‘Return good for evil. If your enemy’s hungry, feed him,’”—et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. “I heard God say in my mind, ‘I want you to bake him his favorite pie; and take it over there, and give it to him.’”

Dave:I knew you were going to say something like that. I’m like, “No!” Really?

Gary:She said, “I said to God, ‘If I baked the pie, and went over there, I’d throw it in his face.’”

Dave:Yeah, me too!

Gary:She said, “The next morning, I reflected on the same passage. It took God four mornings to get me willing to bake a pie. I went over there, and rang the doorbell on the apartment where they were. He came to the door.”

Ann:He’s living with this other woman?!

Gary:He’s living with his girlfriend.

Ann:And she bakes him a pie, out of obedience.

Gary:She bakes him a pie; yes. He comes to the door; he is behind the screen door. She said, “I just simply said to him: ‘The other day, I was reading the Scriptures. God impressed on me to bake you a pie and bring it to you. I just want to give it to you.’ He said, ‘Well, that’s very kind of you.’” He reached out, and took the pie; walked back in; closed the door in her face. She said, “Gary, I hate to think what would’ve happened, if I had not done that; because that was the first step in our two-year process of reconciliation.”

Dave:Really?

Gary:See, it’s hard to reject love from somebody that has done anything like that.

Ann:—it’s grace. It’s receiving grace, and you don’t deserve it. It’s like what Jesus did for us; it’s the gospel.

Gary:That’s right.

Dave:I was shocked—we spoke this past weekend at a marriage event in a camp—we’re in a tent. We’re complaining the whole time; because it’s muddy and rainy. There’s 2,000 people under this big huge tent in this field in Ohio. I bet we heard eight to ten stories of affairs, where they forgave each other. Usually, you hear that story; and it doesn’t end well. But I was shocked at how many said: “Yep, we are good,” “We’re in a better place than we’ve ever been, and we went through a horrific thing,” “We made bad decisions.” The power of God gave them the power to forgive, and they have a story.

Ann:And they’ve had to put so much work into it—hard work—but they ended up—the ones we talked to—“We’re better now than we were before.”

Dave:Well, you said earlier—I got to ask you this—you felt like you married the wrong person. I think we all, at some point, feel that; at least, we’ve heard it from so many couples.

Gary:Oh, yes.

Dave:What do you say when people feel that way? Because you felt it; I felt it.

Ann:I felt it.

Gary:Well, the first thing I say is: “I can understand that. I can understand that. I remember when I felt that.” Because I have people in my office, who say to me, “I don’t have any hope for our marriage. My husband won’t come for counseling,” or “My wife won’t come for counseling,” “They won’t read a book on marriage,” “They won’t go to a marriage conference,” “They won’t even talk about us. So I don’t know anything; I don’t know what I can do.”

Ann:That probably does feel hopeless.

Gary:Yeah, it did. I say to them—sometimes, even if both of them are there, without hope—I say, “I can understand how you can get there. Would you be willing to go on my hope for a while? Because I have hope for you. If you’re willing to go on my hope, then I’ll meet with you; and we’ll see what can happen.” If both of them are there—of course, that’s the best—if both of them are there. We start working through some things; and on down the road, then, they’re doing well.

I’ve given this challenge, however, when only one of them would be there—after I got to know them and learned the situation—“Would you be willing to do an experiment with me? If you and I can sit here, and figure out your spouse’s primary love language, would you be willing, with the help of God, to speak their love language, at least, once a week for six months? And let’s see what happens. If you are, then I’ll meet with you every three weeks, and just kind of walk with you through the journey.” Over and over again, before the six months is over, I’ve seen that other person begin to melt.

Ann:Really?!

Gary:Because they know they don’t deserve it.

I remember one lady: “Dr. Chapman, my husband’s a mechanic, full-time job. Out behind the house, he has a shop where he works on cars every night after dinner. All day, Saturday, he’s out there in the shop, working on cars. He expects me to have all of his meals cooked, all of his clothes clean—everything—nothing’s coming back to me, and I feel so empty inside. I just don’t think I can handle this.”

Eventually, I gave her this challenge. First two or three weeks, he didn’t say a word; but then, he said, one night after dinner, “What’s going on with you?” She said, “What do you mean?” He said, “Well, you’ve been kind to me lately. I don’t know what’s going on with you.” I said, “What’d you tell him?” She said, “I told him the truth: ‘I’m going over there to that church, and I’m trying to take some counseling and learn how to be a better wife.’” “I knew something was going on,” he said; slammed the door and went outside.

Next two or three weeks, he said—one night, he said—

Ann:And you’re saying once a week.

Gary:Once a week.

Ann:That’s not very much.

Gary:No, just once a week; it’s consistency.

And then, he said to her, “Well, I don’t know what you’re trying to do; but it’s not going to work.” She said, “Well, I told you what I’m trying to do.” And then, a little later on, he said, “What you’re doing is not fair. You know I don’t deserve this; this is not fair.” She said [to husband], “Look, I told you what I’m doing.”

This is the way it went; we were four months into this. One night, after dinner, he said to her, “Anything I could do to help you before I go out to the shop?” She said, “Well, if you like…” She told him, and he did it. After that, every week, at least once, he’d say, “Anything I can do to help you before I go to the shop?” Now, he’s speaking her language.

Dave:—acts of service.

Gary:At the end of the six months, she said, “Gary, if anyone had ever told me I would have love feelings for him again, I would’ve said, ‘It’s impossible.’” But she said, “I do.”

Dave:Really?

Gary:I never met her husband; but one of our members was over there at his shop one day. He brought the topic up; and he asked him: “Do you know Gary Chapman?” He said, “Yeah, he’s on our staff.” “That guy is a miracle worker. My wife went over there; he changed my wife.”

I’m not a miracle worker, but love works miracles. The Bible says we love God because He first loved us. The same principle is true in human relationships. You love somebody who doesn’t deserve to be loved because God loved us when we were sinners. We love them, when they’re sinners, with the help of God. It’s not natural; it’s not natural. But love tends to break down barriers.

Ann:And because of your love language idea, she took the one specific way to love him, which would communicate to him; because you could feel overwhelmed. There’s so many different ways to love him that wouldn’t have been speaking his language; but because she spoke his language, it meant so much more.

Gary:Yep, absolutely.

Dave:When does it not work? Is there a place where a man’s or wife’s heart gets so hard, it just doesn’t break through?

Gary:Yes, there is a place for tough love; but it’s most effective if it comes after six months of tender love.

Ann:Oh, so you’ve been doing this for six months.

Gary:Six months: if there’s no change, then I think there’s a place to say, “I don’t know how you feel about us; but I feel like over the last six months, I have loved you in every way I know how. It appears to me that you have no interest in our marriage, so I am going to move out and move home with my mother for a while. I’m not deserting you. If you’re willing to go for counseling, I’ll go with you,” or “If you’re willing to deal with the problem,”—if they have a problem; whatever it is, whether it’s alcohol, or anger, or whatever—“If you’re willing to go for counseling to deal with that, I’ll go with you when the time comes. But I love you too much to sit here and do nothing and let you continue in your pattern.” You move out. But that person—who’s had tender love for six months—is going to be far more motivated to get help; because now, he’s going to lose something that he’s been receiving.

Normally, we don’t do that. Normally, we put up with their behavior for so long—we get so aggravated—and we just say, “I’m out of here,” “I’m out of here”; and we do the tough-love thing. The person we’re leaving—in their mind, they’re saying—“Good riddance. I’m glad you are leaving. I’m sick and tired of you too.” That’s why I challenge people: “Try the biblical thing first. Try loving your enemy first, in a meaningful way, over six months; and then, do the tough-love thing.”

Ann:I was mentoring a girl who was going through the same kind of thing. Her husband was just off, cheating on her. She said, “Ann, I don’t want to get a divorce; I love him.” I said, “Well, this has happened over and over; he’s not willing to change.” I think the best thing to do is kind of what you’re saying, Gary: say to him, “I’m choosing us; I want us. I want our family to work, but it appears like you don’t. I’m going to go back home,”—they live in another state—”I’m going to go there. If you choose us, I’ll be back. But until you can choose only me and our family, then I’ll be waiting.”

He was mad; he got worse for a while. She continued to pursue God. She continued to just send it [the message]; she wasn’t belligerent or mean. It took probably six months of him being miserable—acting out, becoming worse—and then, he came back, and said, “I want to choose us.” It doesn’t always work, but it can work.

Gary:Yeah, that’s right; that’s right.

Dave:I’m guessing some may not know the five love languages.

Ann:Yeah, let’s do that!

Gary:Okay.

Dave:I can’t imagine: there’s got to be somebody on Mars.

Ann:And then, after that, there’s apology love language.

Dave:Should we save the apology love languages for the bonus?

Ann:Well, maybe we could do two of them. Maybe that—

Dave:No; Jim said, “Yes.” I think that would make you want to become a monthly donor to FamilyLife. You’re going to want to know the apology. Are there five of those?

Gary:Yeah.

Dave: Yeah, there’s five of those. We’re going to save that for later, but walk us through—have you done this a few times?—the five love languages?

Gary:A few times.

Dave:How many years ago?

Gary:You’re right: millions of people have heard the term, “love languages.” But many people don’t have the concept that, out of these five, each of us has a primary love language. If you don’t speak their primary love language, they won’t feel loved, even though you’re speaking some of the others.

Words of Affirmation—these are in no particular order—words of affirmation: “You look nice in that outfit,” “I appreciate what you did,”—using words to build the person up. The ancient Proverb says, “Life and death is in the power of the tongue.”

Dave:Proverbs 18.

Gary:Yep; verse 21.

So words of affirmation. I did have a lady say to me, “Well, Dr. Chapman, how can I—I’d like to give him words of affirmation—but I can’t think of anything good to say about the man.” I said, “Well, does he ever take a shower?” She said, “Well, yeah.” I said, “How often?” She said, “Well, every day.” I said, “If I were you, I’d start there; I’d say, “They’re men who don’t.” There’s always something you can find to say good about the worst person of all with words of affirmation.

And then, Acts of Service: doing something for the person that they would like for you to do. In a marriage, that would be such things as cooking meals, washing dishes, vacuuming floors, mowing grass, walking the dog, changing the baby’s diaper. Just anything that you know would be meaningful to them. The old saying: “Actions speak louder than words,”—if this is their love language—actions will speak louder than words.

And then, there’s Gifts. It’s universal to give gifts. My academic background, before I studied counseling and theology, was cultural anthropology. I did an undergrad and a master’s studying cultures and how they’re organized. We’ve never discovered a culture where gift-giving is not an expression of love.

Ann:Really?

Gary:And the gifts don’t have to be expensive. We’ve always said: “It’s the thought that counts.” I say to guys, “You can get free flowers in the spring and summer. Just go in your backyard and pick one. Do what your kids do.” So gifts.

And then, number four is Quality Time: giving them your undivided attention. I call it: “Sit down and listen time.” We talk about a quiet time with God or sit-down time with God. Well, why not have a sit-down time with our spouse every day? Just share some things that are going on in our lives.

Ann:I think that undivided attention. It’s not easy to do now with all of our devices and phones. I like that.

Gary:You’re exactly right. And you don’t have to always be sitting down. You can be taking a walk down the road or going out to eat, assuming that you talk. We’ve seen people in the restaurant;—

Ann:—who don’t talk.

Gary:—both of them on their phones.

And then, number five is Physical Touch. In a marriage, that such thing as holding hands, and kissing, and embracing—the whole sexual part of marriage—arm around the shoulder; driving down the road, you put your hand on their leg. Sitting around the house; they walk by—you trip them—I’m kidding on that one; okay? Don’t trip your spouse.

The basic idea, as I said earlier, is that each of us has a primary love language. One of those five speaks more deeply to us than the other four. Now, all of them are fine. We’re not going to turn anyone away, but if we don’t receive love in our primary language, we will not feel loved, even though the person may be speaking some of the other languages.

Ann:Do we usually speak the language that we know the best? If my love language is words, do I generally give words?

Gary:About 75 percent of the people: the one they want to receive is the one they most naturally give. About 25 percent of the people will give/will speak one of the other languages, but it’s not what they want. I attribute that to the fact that they were taught to speak that language when they were growing up. If the dad told the son: “Always buy the woman gifts,” “Always buy the woman gifts,”—well, then, he buys her gifts—not because he wants gifts, because that’s what he was taught to do.

But most naturally, we speak our own life. That’s what I did for Karolyn before I came down off the high—it was a little while—I gave her positive words. I didn’t know anything about love languages. I just told her—I like to hear words—I gave her words. One night, she said to me—yeah, I told her often: “I love you, honey; I’m so glad I married you. I just love you; love you; love you.” One night, she said, “You keep on saying ‘I love you’; if you love me, why don’t you help me?” I said, “What do you mean?” She said, “Well, you don’t ever offer to wash the dishes, or vacuum the floors, or clean the toilet. You don’t offer to do anything.” I didn’t say this—but what I was thinking—“What are you talking about?! My mother did those things!” Whoa, we bring our history with us: “Mama did it; you do it.”

But looking back on that now, she was telling me her love language, which is one way to figure out your spouse’s love language: “What do they complain about?” The complaint reveals the love language. If they say, “I just feel like we don’t spend any time together anymore,” they’re telling you quality time is their language.

Dave:You really got to listen.

Ann:I was with a woman the other day; and she was saying, “You should see my to-do list.” I said, “How’s it going?” She goes, “It’s been there forever.” To me, it’s like, “Oh, acts of service is her love language”; she’s super frustrated.

Dave:Well, what about the wife—or the husband; could go either way—who expects you to know? They don’t tell you; they’re like, “Read my mind; watch my life. You should know.”

Ann:We can read his book. And you have ways to take the test if you don’t know.

Gary:Yeah; there is a free quiz at FiveLoveLanguages.com. One for married couples; there’s one for single adults; there’s one for teenagers; there’s one for military couples. That’s all at FiveLoveLanguages.com.

But here are three simple ways to discover another person’s language:

One is: “Observe Their Behavior,” which is what you mentioned: “How do they typically express love to you and other people?” That’s a clue.

And then, “What do they request most often?” For example, my teenage daughter—her request, during those years—“Dad, can we take a walk after dinner?” She wanted my time, just two of us walking together and talking.

And then, “What do they complain about most often?” You put those three together, you can pretty well figure out a person’s primary love language.

Ann:You’ve written books about your kids’ love language. I remember reading that. And then, I asked each of our sons, thinking they would all say the same thing: “How do you know that I love you?” They each said something different—which I felt like I was parenting them the same—but that helped me to discover their love language. That’s really important to know, as parents, with our kids too.

Gary:Yeah, absolutely. That book, The Five Love Languages of Children, has helped so many parents. I say to parents: “The question is not: ‘Do you love your children?’ The question is: ‘Do your children feel loved?’”

But if you’re not learning to—and I say to the parents, also—“Please don’t hear me saying that you only speak a child’s primary love language,”—

Ann:That’s good.

Gary:—no—heavy doses of the primary, but sprinkle in the other four. We would like that child to learn how to receive love; and later, how to give love in all five languages; that’s the healthiest adult.

Ann:Well, let me ask you this, Gary—because, in your new book, you’re talking about conflict resolution—”Does love language play into that of even how you have conflict? Does that play into it at all?”

Gary:I think it may. If you each feel loved, for example, you’re less likely to lose it, and yell, and scream at each other.

Ann:You’re more gracious to one another.

Gary:If you know that your spouse’s language is words of affirmation, and you have a conflict, you’re less—I say less likely—because you still can do it. You do what comes natural for you; if you are an arguer or yeller, then you’re going to yell.

But I think it involves recognizing that you’re married to a human, and humans will not have the same thoughts and the same feelings on any topic. So first of all, what we have to decide is: “To try to understand the other person’s position.”

Ann:How do you do that?

Gary:Well, I’ve said to people: “It helps, I think, if you structure the conversation when you have a conflict; say, ‘Honey, why don’t you take five minutes and tell me your side? I’m going to try to understand you; and then, I’ll have five minutes to tell my side, and you can try to understand me.’”

Ann:You’re not in the heat of the battle at this point.

Gary:That’s right.

Ann:You’re kind of waiting for the feelings to subside?

Gary:A couple has to have a plan for handling conflicts. If they don’t have a plan, they’re going to do what comes natural.

Ann:—yelling.

Gary:Yes; I say, “But if you both agree on this, first of all, each of you can call a timeout. If you realize you’re about to escalate, you can call a timeout. Just use the timeout sign; and that means, ‘I need a break.’ Let them take a break—they can walk around the block—or my mother used to say, ‘Before you say anything to anybody when you’re angry, count to ten.’ I think mother was on the right track; I’d suggest one hundred or a thousand; ten’s not long enough.”

Dave:Take a timeout overnight?

Gary:You can, if it’s late at night, especially. But when you do come back then: “Let’s take turns talking,”—rather than—because here’s what we discovered: in a conflict situation, the average person will listen to the other person 17 seconds before they interrupt and give their idea—

Ann:Really?

Gary:—17 seconds—“That’s not right…” “Well, that’s not right…” Now, we’re back into an argument.

But if you take turns—if this is your plan—take turns. “I’m going to be the listener when you’re talking. I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from.” Try to put yourself in their shoes, and look at the world through their eyes. You can ask questions to clarify, and they can clarify their statements. And then, you can honestly say—it might take a few turns—but you can honestly say, eventually, “Honey, now that I hear you, I can see where you’re coming from. I can see how that makes sense.” Now, you’re not an enemy.

Ann:Well, you’ve just deescalated everything.

Gary:That’s right; and they, eventually, can say the same thing to you. “Okay, honey; now, I see your side. Now, how can we solve the problem?” Now, you’re not trying to win an argument; now, you’re trying to solve the problem.

Because if you win—I’ve often said this—if you win an argument with your spouse: they’re arguing you; and they just say, “Okay, have it your way,”—they lost—it’s no fun to live with a loser; why would you create one?

Dave:The relationship loses; yes.

Gary:We’re on the same team! You won; they lost—no! They’re on your team—you both lost.

Ann:Gary, what if you have a spouse who’s not willing to do that? They just get defensive.

Dave:Not talking about me, are you?

Ann:No, you’re not, actually. No, you’re not.

Dave:There are times.

Ann:There used to be that we would both get defensive. But instead of—if we’re at it—and if one of them would say, “Hey, let’s just calm down; and let me hear your side.” Is there ever—if you would’ve asked me that, back in the day—I would’ve certainly talked about my side. But because you asked me, I think I would’ve been more careful with my words.

Gary:I think that’s a good idea. Say: “I think I disagree with you, but I really want to understand your perspective. Why don’t you explain it to me again?” Whatever the topic: “You explain it to me; I want to try to see it from your perspective.” You take that approach—you’re right—they will say it; and they will say it without yelling and screaming, because you’re asking them to share. And you get that going both ways.

But see, most couples don’t have a plan; they just do what comes natural.

Ann:—and what emotions—they just go with where their emotions are going.

Gary:They’re led by their emotions.

Dave:What do you do with the anger that rises up when you’re really disagreeing—

Ann:—or defensive.

Dave:—and you do not see their side? Or if you do, and you understand it, you’re like: “You’re wrong,” “You’re just wrong.” And the fact that you can’t see that, I’m feeling this—I’m getting—I’m shouting.

Ann:I’m guessing you shouldn’t say, “You’re totally wrong.”

Dave:We talk about anger’s plugged into something—all that kind of stuff—what do you do with that?

Gary:Well, I think we first of all have to acknowledge that we’re about to explode. If you want to be productive—most couples aren’t thinking about how to be productive in this situation; they’re just doing what comes natural for them—and both of you doing what comes natural, you destroy each other; you destroy the relationship.

You have to wake up one day—sometimes, it happens at a conference like you were talking about; sometimes, it happens in reading a book—you wake up, and say, “We don’t have to do this forever; let’s think our way through this: ‘How to do something different here.’”

This is one of the biggest lessons couples either learn or don’t learn. Couples that don’t learn how to solve conflicts without arguing are going to be yelling and screaming at each other when they’re 90 years old.

Ann:And then, they’re teaching their kids how to do that.

Gary:Absolutely; yeah, absolutely. The kids grow up in that framework, and that’s what they do.

Dave:I sat with a couple. Everything you’re saying, I think, requires humility; might be one of the greatest character qualities that build a marriage. This couple came in—I’m not a counselor, but I am a marriage writer/speaker—so I sat with them. I asked them, “Have you ever been to a therapist before?” “A counselor?—yeah.” “What’d they say?” “We should get a divorce.”

Ann: “Really?—at a church?”

Dave:“Yeah, at a church.”

I’m telling you—an hour later, Gary—I was thinking the same thing; I was like, “Oh, my goodness.” I could see why this guy said that: “There was pride-against-pride: ‘I don’t care what you think. You’re wrong; I’m right’”; and there was no buckling. I’m like, “You guys have to decide: ‘Do you want to be married? Because right now, you are not willing to make any concessions.’” There was just no humility.

Is that at the heart of A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage?—you got to put away the pride, the sin nature; you got to bury it?

Gary:I don’t think most people are thinking along those lines. But yes, I think the whole thing—I mentioned earlier, in terms of the attitude of Christ, Philippians, Chapter 2—He was God. He humbled Himself and became a man! And when He got on level ground, He stepped down further to death on a cross. “So have that attitude.”

Again, we don’t have that attitude by nature; it’s a matter of saying to God, “Lord, I’m not there. I don’t have that attitude, but I want it. I want to have the attitude of Christ.” This is why Christians have an advantage to non-Christians in relationships; we have outside help from God. Anyone who says to God, “I want the attitude of Christ toward my spouse. Lord, work in my heart,” God will answer that prayer.

Dave:He will; that’s a prayer He’ll answer.

Ann:And in our 45 years, we’ve had the Holy Spirit convict us when that pride rises up. We want to go our own way, but the Holy Spirit just nudges us. We can feel God’s pressure of: “Don’t say it,” “Don’t do it,” “Don’t act like that.” That is the benefit of walking in Christ and, even, maintaining a healthy, good relationship with Him.

Dave:Another aspect of that—and this relates to conflict—is forgiveness. How do we navigate that world? Because you’re hurt deeply; and yet, we’re commanded by God: “We’ve been forgiven; we forgive others,”—Ephesians 4; how do you get there?

Gary:I think, first of all, we have to understand what forgiveness is—a lot of fuzzy thinking on that—forgiveness is not a feeling. There’s three Hebrew words and four Greek words that are translated “forgive” or “forgiveness” in the New Testament. But the two key ideas are:

One of them is to pardon the person: “I’m not going to make you pay for this; I’m going to lift the penalty. I’m going to show mercy and not justice.”

And the other is: “To take away.” The Bible says God removes our sins from us as far as the east is from the west. It’s to take away the barrier that was created by what you did to hurt me. That emotional barrier will sit there until there’s an apology and forgiveness. But forgiveness says, “I’m going to remove the barrier so that our relationship can go forward.”

The forgiveness thing is the choice to do those two things; it’s not a feeling. Some people will say, “Well, I just don’t feel like forgiving them; they’ve hurt me so deeply.” I understand that: you don’t have to have positive feelings; you’re making a choice.

I think, also, it’s important to know what forgiveness does not do. Forgiveness does not destroy the memory. I’ve heard people say, “If you haven’t forgotten, then you haven’t forgiven.”

Ann:That forgive-and-forget idea.

Gary:Everything that’s ever happened is stored in our brain. Sometimes, it seeps down to the subconscious mind; but it’s still there, and the memory will come back to you. And forgiveness does not remove all the painful emotions. When the memory comes back, the emotions come back. You can feel anger again; you can feel hurt; you can feel many emotions.

What do you do—if they’ve apologized, and you’ve made the choice to forgive them—and you remember it, and the emotions come back? I think you take it to God, and you say, “Lord, You know what I’m remembering,” and “You know what I’m feeling again. I thank You that I made the choice to forgive them. Now, help me to do something good today.” You move out to do something good today; don’t be controlled by your emotions or by your memories.

Ann:How do we do that? How are we not controlled by our emotions and our memories when some of them are very traumatic?

Gary:Oh, yes. I think it’s, first of all, acknowledging: “Okay, I am remembering it,” “Okay, I’m feeling this again.”

Ann:It’s like lament; acknowledging the feeling.

Gary:Yeah; and God already knows. But we are telling Him: “You know what I’m remembering. You know what I’m feeling again. But I don’t want to be controlled by this.” You can love them, even with those feelings/hurt feelings. You can still reach out to speak their language—or some other way—communicate love to them.

The other big factor is forgiveness does not rebuild trust. How many times have they been in my office together, working on rebuilding their marriage? Maybe, the husband was unfaithful; or maybe, it could have been the wife. She will say—or he will say—”Dr. Chairman, I’ve forgiven him; and that’s why we’re here, trying to work on our marriage. But to be honest with you, I don’t trust him.” And I say, “Welcome to the human race. Forgiveness does not restore trust. Forgiveness opens the door to the possibility that trust can be reborn. We lose trust when the person is untrustworthy.”

I would say to the husband—if he’s the guilty party—I’d say, “Here’s my suggestion: if you want her to trust you again, you say to her: ‘My computer is yours anytime you want to look at it. My phone is yours—all the passwords—everything. If I tell you I’m going over to George’s house to help him work on his car—if you want to come over there and see if I’m there—it’s fine.’”

Ann:Or you can put Trackman, the GPS, on your phone.

Gary:“’I’m through with deceit; I’ve hurt you enough. I don’t want to hurt you anymore.” You take that approach; she’ll come to trust you. Again, it might be three months, or six months, or nine months; but she will come to trust you because you’re being trustworthy; you earned it.

Ann:And if a spouse won’t do that—if they say, “No; now, you’re trying to control me,”—what would you say?

Gary:I would just try to help them understand that you want to trust them again, but you have to have some evidence in order to trust them again. “I have forgiven you; I do want to work on our marriage. That’s why we’re going for counseling, and I want to trust you again.”

Dave:I mean, if a guy has had an affair—and it could be a woman—and says: “No, I’m not going to let you see my phone,” “I’m not giving you the passwords”; is he serious?

Gary:I would certainly question that. I would certainly question that. I don’t know. We don’t know his heart, but his actions are showing that he’s not open for her to have evidence to trust him again.

Ann:I think our last question is: Dave and I have a great relationship, in terms of going deep. We know each other’s fears, our hurts—the things that are hard things to talk about—we’ll go there; we call it a Level 5. I notice that you have five levels of communication in this book. Because it comes naturally to us, I just assume that most people would go to these deeper levels of intimacy in conversation; but they don’t.

Can you go through those? And I don’t think a lot of people understand the levels of where we can go in a relationship. And then, is that important?

Gary:I think many couples just have hallway talk.

Ann:Me too.

Gary:“Did you sleep well last night, honey?” “Yeah, yeah; slept well.”

Ann:“Cold out today.”

Gary:“Did you have a good day today, honey?” “Yeah, I had a good day.” That’s the same thing you’d say, walking down the hallway at work. It’s just hallway talk.

I don’t remember exactly the titles that I use on the five.

Dave:We’ve got them all.

Ann:We have them.

Gary:Okay.

Ann:“Cliché.”

Gary:

“Cliché”—and that’s just very similar to that [hallway talk]—it’s just light talk.

Ann:“How you doing?”—and you don’t want to really know.

Gary:Yeah; “How are you doing?”

And then, there’s “Intellectual talk”—that’s one of them—“Intellectual Talk,” where we’re sharing our thoughts with each other—

Dave:—the facts.

Gary:—and our visions and dreams for the future.

Ann:

And then, we get into “Opinions”; and opinions, that’s a little deeper.

Gary:

And then there’s “Emotions,” where we feel free to share our emotions, and say, “Honey, I’m going be honest with you; I’m feeling discouraged today. Here’s what happened at work…” Many couples never get there—to where they’re sharing how they feel—not just in the marriage, but in other situations and things that are going on.

Ann:Why do you think they don’t go there?

Gary:I don’t know. Except that we/some of us have the feeling, “Well, I shouldn’t have those kind of feelings. I shouldn’t be discouraged,” or “I shouldn’t be…”—whatever I’m feeling.

Ann:And maybe, it feels like a weakness.

Gary:Yeah, I think that’s it; I think that’s it.

And then, there’s what I call “Truth Talk.” That’s when we’re really being open and honest with each other, and just sharing life fully with each other, and helping each other process life. That’s where we all would like to be. Or at least, some people don’t even have the vision of that—to know what that would really look like—where you just really share your heart with each other. You’re there—you’re praying for each other; and you’re encouraging each other; and you’re speaking each other’s love language—and when there are problems, you’re sitting down, and looking at them, and processing them together.

Ann:How have you and Karolyn gotten to that depth of conversation? Does it come naturally now? You’ve been doing it a long time.

Gary:It does now, after all these years. It’s been that way for a good long while.

Dave:It took—what?—60 years?

Gary:It only took 60 years. No; we’ve had a good marriage, of course, for a long, long time now.

And of course, I’ve learned in my counseling others. I’ve learned things that helped me in my marriage. In those early years, I remember—man, when I would sit there, and listen to people—and I’d just shoot up a prayer; I’d say, “God, I don’t have a clue what to tell these people.” And God brings in my mind something that I would never have even thought about. God helps us in whatever ministry we have; He enables us to do that ministry. And then, we learn in the process.

Dave:I know that I learned—I was going to say “early”; I don’t think I learned it early—I think it took ten years; maybe fifteen. When Ann and I go out on a date—and one of the things we learned at the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember, as an engaged couple—you should date. We built that in our rhythm, even after having kids. I learned: she wants, on that date, to go to Level 5. She doesn’t want 1, 2, or 3. She wants to talk about—not just me—mostly, us.

Ann:I want to know how he’s doing inside. I want to know what he’s feeling. And I want him to know me. When I’m asking, “How are you doing?” He goes, “Fine.”

Dave:“I’m fine.”

But I realized she wasn’t feeling loved by that. It was like I was avoiding it. I was like, “Can’t we just have fun? Let’s go to a movie; let’s laugh,”—we’ll do that too—but there was something in her; it was like: “I want to know you. I want us to be great.”

Ann:And Gary, I’ll say this: what you talked about earlier—of knowing: “What’s behind that idea?”—for Dave, he had never had anyone do that with him, ever. His dad was gone.

Dave:Never saw it in my home.

Ann:His parents were alcoholics. His little brother died, who you’d have been best friends with. And all his siblings were ten, twelve, and fourteen years older. And you didn’t go there with your friends.

Dave:No, I was afraid.

Ann:But for me to be able to understand: “He’s never done this; give him some grace.”

Gary:Right; that’s important.

Dave: “Give me some grace.”

Ann:I am! I’m giving you grace.

Dave:She has. But I had to also learn—and I tell men this—for me, it was courageous to say things that were scary. It’s like I had to muster up and say, “God, help me to step somewhere I don’t feel comfortable.”

Ann:Because it’s so intimate.

Dave:And you know what?—she longs for it; it makes her feel loved—“It doesn’t matter what I feel; here we go. I’m going to do it.”

Ann:I remember you saying, “I felt like I wasn’t good, preaching, this week,” or “I feel like I’m really scared about our money.” We would have fights about money, and he would just be on me. But when he said, “I’m feeling scared about our money,” now, I’ve got a little more compassion. Those Level 5—getting into the deeper parts—I think it’s so important; because God put us together, as one, to know each other intimately—not just physically—but emotionally.

Dave:And I love this book because it’s a simple guide; it is!

Ann:The chapters are so little.

Dave:It’s quick: Practical Insights Every Couple Needs to Thrive. There’s the book; we got it in the show notes of FamilyLifeToday.com. Get one; get three.

Gary:Okay; thanks.

Gary:Very good to be with you all.

Ann:You too.

Ann:Hey, thanks for watching. If you like this episode,—

Dave:You better like it.

Ann:—just hit that “Like” button.

Dave:And we’d like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the “Subscribe”—I can’t say the word, “subscribe”—hit the “Subscribe” button. I don’t think I can say this word!

Ann:I can subscribe.

Dave:Look at that! You say it so easily. “Subscribe”; there he goes!

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