Four Selfless Decisions for a Better Marriage | Arlene Pellicane

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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The Simple Way to Make Marriage Easier

Guest:Arlene Pellicane

Release Date:July 31, 2025

Ann:How many times have people said, “We’re getting divorced; we’re just not happy anymore”?

Arlene:“We’re just not happy.”

Ann:It’s a choice!

Arlene:My goodness—if it was my responsibility to make James happy—it’s like: “Wait; you’re putting all your happiness on me? I don’t want that responsibility. It’s God who’s going to give you joy, and His presence is fullness of joy.”

Dave:So how do you get out of a selfish perspective to a selfless perspective?

Dave:Well, I got to tell you this: last time we met, you drove through a snow tsunami.

Arlene:That’s how much I wanted to be with you!

Ann:Arlene Pellicane, we are so impressed by you; honestly.

Dave:Do you remember that at all?

Arlene:I do remember just thinking, “There is so much snow in this parking lot. What in the world am I doing?” It must’ve been like a grace-of-God thing—I, honestly, was never afraid—I wasn’t ever in a spot, where it was dangerous. I felt like I just drove slow, and just made it to the airport; and it worked out. I think God must have been my little snowplow or something; it was okay.

Ann:Are you in Southern California?

Arlene:Yeah, I’m in San Diego. I do not know how to drive in snow; my husband would attest to that.

Ann:That says so much about her.

Arlene:—or God.

Ann:She’s pretty impressive.

Arlene:Both. And I’m a rule-swallower.

Ann:You are?

Arlene:It’s like: “You’re supposed to be at that interview”; “I will be at that interview.”

Dave:I don’t know if you knew this, but that was our first week hosting FamilyLife Today without Bob Lepine,—

Arlene:Isn’t that amazing? I remember that.

Dave:—who was co-hosting this for 30 years. He was our pro; we’re all scared. And then, a snowstorm comes. Everybody cancels—you and J.P. Pokluda were the only ones who showed up. That means you’re a warrior; yay!

Ann:That’s right.

Dave:That’s what you are.

Ann:That’s what you are. I’m excited that we’re going to talk about your marriage book. I’m just going to say it, Arlene: I love this book. You’re funny; you are practical.

Dave:She doesn’t say that to every guest; trust me.

Ann:And I was reading this out loud to Dave: “You have to listen to this.” This is when you know this is really good.

Arlene:This is gold status if we’re going with the read-aloud-to-husband ploy, that’s good. Thank you, Ann!

Dave:Well, talk about—you open up the book with camping.

Arlene:Yes.

Dave:And we, literally, two days ago, did a—it was called Couples Camp for this church in Cincinnati—Crossroad Church; it’s a really big, big megachurch. They had 2,000 people in a tent on a field, and it poured down rain Friday night.

Ann:Arlene, we’re driving to this thing, thinking, “What are we doing? We’re not campers.” We’re like, “This is going to be awful.” And it’s that wet—it’s raining hard—and we’re going to be sleeping in a tent.

Dave:I didn’t even bring boots; I wore my Air Jordan’s—

Ann:Oh, my goodness.

Dave:—all nice and white—I had jeans on. I get out of my car; and the pastor there, who’s leading the whole thing, just looks at me, and goes, “Are you stupid?” I go, “What?” He goes, “You have to hold the wrong clothes on. You don’t wear cotton when it’s raining,”—all this—I found out there’s this whole camping world.

Arlene:“Never/your jeans are never going to dry,” “Your shoes are totally wrong.”

Dave:—the whole weekend.

Ann:I go to the bathroom in the dark.

Arlene:Oh, my word.

Ann:I’m like, “Oh, I forgot my flashlight; but it’s okay.” I’m kind of trying to go somewhere that people can’t see me, outside in the woods. I didn’t know—I can’t see—and I go down this mud hill.

Arlene:No, you don’t.

Ann:I fall down!

Dave:—on her butt.

Arlene:No, you don’t!

Ann:My whole hand sinks all the way into the mud. I’m laughing out loud in the dark, by myself, thinking, “I am so dumb. What am I doing?”

Dave:I’ll just add this—

Arlene:—so funny.

Dave:—it was the greatest marriage event we’ve ever done, and we’ve done marriage events all around the country for 30-plus years. It was amazing. I think part of what happened; God showed up. At one point, we asked couples if they wanted to repent—to not stand up; to go down in their knees in a mud pit—I think half the room did. They baptized hundreds yesterday. Hundreds were burning their divorce papers. It was probably—like I said—best ever.

Ann:God did something.

Dave:I think part of it is—what you get into in the intro of your book—is there’s something happens when you’re in crisis, when you’re not comfortable—because you’re not in a swanky hotel, with nice food, and king-sized beds with perfect linens.

Ann:Guys, I’m just going to say: “I like the Bourgeoisie life—I like the good sheets at the Marriott—I just like that.

Arlene:“God can speak to me there.”

Ann:—“too!”

Dave:He speaks both places.

Ann:He does. But I’m just saying I was surprised; like, “Man, this is powerful.” I can’t afford the Bourgeoisie stuff, but I like it.

So what was it like for you? Take us back to that.

Arlene:This is 26 years ago; James and I are newlyweds. He loved camping. He grew up—put everything on your back—sleep under the stars: “This is amazing.”

I grew up—like we’re Asians—Asians don’t camp. We would go, and you stay at the hotel—and then, you walk around the lake—that was camping. So it was like: “We camp now?” We were newlyweds; we were in Dallas.

Ann:You’re like, “Am I a camper?”

Arlene:“Am I a camper now?” It was a young marrieds couples retreat—like what you’re talking about—and James said, “This would be a great way to meet people.” I could not argue with that—we’re at this new church; we’re new—”Okay, fine.” But you know how, when you say, “Sure”; but then, inside you’re like, “Yeah, I really don’t want to do this.” The closer it got, the more I got, “I really do not want to do this; this is going to be uncomfortable.”

Ann:Were you whining? What were you doing?

Arlene:I was just quiet; I was just quiet.

Dave:Oh.

Arlene:So yeah, quiet is bad; right, Dave? So we are in the car—it’s like a two-hour drive—and we’re going, and I’m totally quiet. He’s like, “Do you want to listen to music?”; “Whatever.” “Are you comfortable?”; “Yes,”—the whole time!

When we get to the campsite, he stops before we go in—turns off the car—and says, “Are you going to be like this all weekend? If you are, we can just turn around and go back home; because I’m here to have fun.” I start to cry, being a newlywed. I realize, “I’m being selfish; I’m such a baby.” “I’m sorry; I’m sorry; I’ll try to have a better attitude. I’m sorry.”

Isn’t it funny?—so you’re like this with your spouse—but then, you meet the other people; and you’re like, “Oh, hi! I love your tent; it’s so pretty. Look at my sleeping…”; you pretend you know how to do all this stuff. The first night in the tent—I’ve never slept outside in a tent before—

Ann:You never had ever?

Arlene:Never in my entire life!

Ann:How old were you?

Arlene:I was probably like 28 years old; I’ve never done this before. I told him, “If I have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night,”—and there was an actual restroom—”will you walk me there?” He’s like, “Sure.” “Great!” He’s asleep, like that, right?—snoring or whatever. He’s totally asleep. [Making outdoor sounds] I’m so scared all the time, and I have to go to the bathroom. I push him: “I got to go to the bathroom; I got to go to the bathroom.” He is not moving; does not even budge. “I want to go now!”—nothing.

“Oh, fine.” I unzip the tent; and I get my little flashlight, and I walk. My flashlight, in my hand, is shaking. I’m just like, “Oh, what is this?” I get to the bathroom; I turn on the light. All the bugs scurrying around—and I’m just like, “Oh, my word; I’m so scared!” By the time I got back in the tent, I was shaking; I was so scared. And now, looking back on it, I’m like, “Grow up!” It was a bathroom; it wasn’t like a mudslide, like yours.

I get back in the tent—and women, have we not done this before?—I start crying loudly so he can hear me. [Making crying sounds] I’m like, “Wake up!” He’s like, “Are you crying?” I’m like, “Yes. You said you would take me to the bathroom and you didn’t take me.” He was just like, “Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness; what is wrong with this woman that she cannot walk 20 feet to a bathroom?” I’m like, “How could you not take me?” So that experience: I’m going to give it a C-plus/B-minus. That was our first trip to try to do that.

But it is this idea of: “Okay, you like this; I will try this.” And when you’re first married, I think it’s hard; it’s out of the comfort zone: “You’re supposed to make me happy; you’re my dream boy. Why are you making me go camping?” But then, as marriage continues/as our marriage has continued, now it’s easier. It gets easier; now, I’m like, “Okay, a tent with a bathroom; whoa! That’s good.” Because now we do the tent—your style—the mud. So you have to adjust; you just have to adjust and find the humor in it.

Ann:But Arlene, sometimes, we don’t; because, at the beginning, we’ll just try it. We’ll even fake it; because we’re like, “He loves me.”

Dave:Feelings are high: infatuation.

Ann:But after a while, I think when people have bad experiences—or maybe, they’re thinking, “Yeah, you didn’t do that,”—we can get resentful. Then, we stop having fun.

I think what you’re writing about—I love how practical you are in this—but I think the expectations in marriage is always surprising; isn’t it? It’s surprising.

Arlene:Just when you said that, I think of: “God’s mercies are new every morning.” Every morning, you have a new mercy. Maybe, that new mercy is for every day of your marriage that you have a new mercy to start again; to be like, “Okay, let me pivot this back to how I used to be.”

Dave:Well, for most people, marriage is hard. In Making Marriage Easier, what were you thinking with that title?

Arlene:It’s like we didn’t want to do: “Making Marriage Easy,” because that’s false advertising. It is the hard in marriage that makes it great, because not everyone can do this. This is something good; this is something to attain to. If you walk into a place, and it’s a beautifully-furnished place, that didn’t happen by accident; people worked at that. It is this idea: “You don’t stumble upon a life full of treasures. You build such a life; there’s effort involved.”

“But why does it have to be so hard?”—that’s what you hear when a poor young person thinks about getting married. What do they hear?—”Oh, marriage is so hard,” “It’s so hard.” Nobody tells you: “No, it’s really good. It’s a good kind of hard; it’ll make you a much better person.”

Ann:It’s like having babies.

Arlene:“You’re going to love your life so much more!”

The idea is: “Instead of waking up, to say, ‘Oh, it’s so hard’; just ask the question, ‘How could I make it easier today?’”—and that’s it: like a little teeny bit easier. Maybe, it’s: “Okay, I’m going to let go of these grudges. Why am I so easily offended? Maybe, I work on that,” or “Maybe, ‘Hey, we need to start eating together again. I feel disconnected from you; let’s just go out to dinner.’ That’s easy enough”; being as specific as possible.

If I’m trying to work out, let’s say—and I just say, “I’m going to try,”—but I’m going to try to have a better marriage—”I’m going to try to work out,”—nothing happens. But if I say, “I’m going to join this class…”—I’ve been going to the same spin class for 20 years in my neighborhood with this/with the same lady, who does it out of her garage—my mom and I go. Every Tuesday and every Thursday, at 8:15, my mom and I go spin. We always do that. Why?—it’s easy: I’ve paid my money; it’s an appointment; my spin instructor knows me. It’s never a question. It’s easy because we just do it all the time.

In our marriage: “How can we be more specific?”—like, “Hey, this is what we’re going to do…” Make it with someone—like your husband, accounts, or whatever, like an appointment—and it just helps it be easier.

Ann:I love that because you’re saying—you’re not saying just: “Hey, I want to work out,”—you’re saying, “I’ve made a decision to work out.” Even in your book, you have four decisions that have made marriage easier.

Dave:I got to say this though, before we jump into those four decisions, you are very positive. You even say in the book: “Sometimes, your kids make fun of you: ‘How was it?’ ‘Great!!’”

Arlene:Yeah, totally.

Dave:“So great!!”

Arlene:“So good!!”—they don’t believe me, because I think everything is so good.

Dave:There’s this demeanor about you; is your husband the same way?

Arlene:No; my husband is the one, who’s like—so it balances out perfectly—he is a positive person, but he is much more critical. I am very naïve, and believing, like, “Oh, you want to sell me that? I will buy ten.” My husband will be like, “You will not use that; go return that.” He balances me out. He is a refiner; he sees what is wrong.

Ann:So you guys are a good balance.

The thing I love about your book, too, is it’s making marriage easier; but [also] How to Love (and Like) Your Spouse for Life. We’ve talked about that a lot. In marriage, it seems like: “Yeah, I love him;—

Arlene:“I love you.”

Ann:—”but I don’t always like him: ‘You’re driving me crazy.’”

Dave:How do you get to the like part? We shared this weekend at this marriage retreat: “I was with four or five of my best buddies that I’ve been in a small group for years. We were going to one of their father’s funerals, years ago, Memphis, Tennessee. I’m driving this rental car; and I say to these guys—I was doing some research—I go, ‘Hey, let me ask you a question: do you feel like your wife loves you?’ I know all their wives and all their kids. Every guy in the car, within five seconds, ‘Yep.’ I go, ‘Here’s a second question: do you feel like your wife likes you?’ Every guy in the car, —within five seconds, ‘Nope!’”

Arlene:“No”; they said that?!

Dave:They’re like, “Why are you asking that?” I go, “Doesn’t that feel weird? We know we’re loved, but she really doesn’t like much about me.” Is that what you found?

Arlene:Isn’t that interesting? One thing I think that helps is—whenever I think, “I do not like James very much right now,”— it’s usually because he’s asking me to do something I don’t want to do. He might be like:—

Dave:—“Let’s go to the bathroom in the middle of the night.”

Arlene:—“Let’s go work out together.” Yeah; “Let’s go camping,”—whatever. I’m like, “I don’t want to do that.” So then, I quickly think to myself, “Well, you know what? There are probably moments—many moments—maybe, right now, where he doesn’t like you either.” Sometimes, we think we’re so high and mighty—

Ann:—the pride piece.

Arlene:—“I don’t like you.” But then, you realize, “Oh, my word; they don’t like me either.” And then, for us, as women, we want to be liked. So then, it turns it around, like, “Wait; how can I be more likable to you?” And then, it just all goes around.

I think it is that question of: “How can I still stay curious and interested in this person, even after ten/twenty/fifty years?” Because if I’m curious about you—if I’m showing caring; if I’m interested: “What are you looking at on YouTube?” “What are you doing?”—and I’m really genuinely curious and interested, they’re going to feel like, “Oh, they like me; they’re interested in me. They want to enter my world.” I think that decision to stay curious: “Ask what they’re doing, and be interested in them.”

And then, another thing is to do stuff together that is fun. When you’re doing something fun, you look across—and it’s not your child; and it’s not your sister, or your brother, or your guy friends, or your girlfriends—but it’s your spouse; then, you’re like: “Oh, I like this person; because we’re at this concert together,” or “We’re at this football game together,” or “We’re riding bikes together,” or “We’re walking, hand in hand, along the beach together,” or “…the lake.” So do things that you like with your spouse; and then that, liking—if you’re only paying bills with your spouse; if you’re only doing the budget with your spouse;—

Ann:—or if you’re only raising kids with the spouse,—

Arlene:—carpooling with the spouse, then, it’s like, “Well, no wonder I don’t like you; because we’re always just saying bad things/ news to each other,”—or whatever.

Dave:I love how you started though; you said, “I don’t know; if I wrote another marriage book, I think I would say something along: ‘The most important character quality needed for a great marriage’—I’m not going to tell you.”

Ann:“Oh, I’m so curious!”

Arlene:Like, “What is this?”

Dave:You illustrated it; what would you say?

Ann:Well, based on her illustration, I’m thinking what you’re thinking is: “Positivity.” That’s really important to you.

Dave:Well, no; that wasn’t what I was thinking; although, that’s huge. When Ann’s not positive, I almost can’t function.

Ann:And I am, generally,—

Dave:She is always positive. And when she’s not, I’m like, “Are you okay?!” Even if it’s for five minutes, I’m like, “Am I that insecure?—I got to have you up? Come on; she is always…”

Ann:Okay, what is it?

Dave:What I was thinking—when you said, “I don’t like things about my spouse,” —“You got to look in the mirror, and say, ‘There must be things about me he doesn’t like’; that’s humility.” I think humility is the—of course, there’s ten; it is huge!

Arlene:It is huge.

Dave:Usually, we’re like: “I don’t like this,” “I don’t like that,”—we’re never going, “Wait a minute; I’ve got issues too.” We only see theirs; we think theirs are the biggest problem in our marriage.

But when you said, “What if I look in the mirror and say, ‘I know there’s things you don’t like about me’?”—that’s big—spouses don’t do that. You only see the problem with your spouse. It’s hard to look in the mirror; that means I got to have enough humility to go: “I’m going to work on me, not you.”

Ann:I feel like that’s what God’s been working on me for the last two years—because I’m always/not always, but I’m often thinking, “If Dave would just…” You’re right, Arlene; I think I’m starting to see: “What’s God asking me to do?” My pridefulness of just thinking: ‘I’m so good at this in our marriage;”—not in other things, but in our marriage—“and if Dave would just…”; it’s kind of like the plank in your eye in Scripture. Is that Matthew?—what?

Dave:Matthew 7.

Ann:Yeah; so anyway, I want to get to—because you guys are talking about four decisions that have really made your marriage easier—and when listeners are like, “Oh, I’m in for that; help me make my marriage easier,”—so let’s get into the first one: “Playing by the Rules.”

Arlene:“Play by the Rules”: have the same rules, and play by them. If you’re playing a game—and it’s like: “Oh, the goal changed,” “The goalpost changed,” or “Wait; why are there so many players on your team and not on my team?”—you have to have real rules in sports, or it’s not fun. The same is true in marriage: if you don’t have the same guidelines—you’re using a different playbook; you’re just doing different things—it is not working.

But if you get on the same page—so first of all: “What does God say?”—if you’re both believers, then it’s: “What does the Word of God tell us about how we’re supposed to treat each other? Let’s do that,” “Okay, this is a vow for life; that means divorce is not an option. So let’s treat each other in a way that we’re going to be able to sustain this, and even enjoy this, all of our lives.” So there’s the big rules/the big ones.

But then, there’s all the small rules that you have as a couple:

“Maybe, we don’t yell at each other,”

or “We eat dinner [together] every day,”

or “We take physical intimacy seriously.” One of my chapters is: “But We Had Sex Last Tuesday.”

It’s like you have to have these rules that make your marriage work and talk about them. One of those rules would be:

“I can tell you anything”; that’s how it was when you were dating. But then, after your marriage, you’re like, “Oh, you know that there are certain taboo subjects you do not bring up in the marriage unless you want a big, big discussion that doesn’t turn out good.” It’s humility—what Dave was saying—the humility says, “No, you really can tell me anything; and I will listen to you.”

Dave:Well, I want to hear about you eating every day.

Arlene:Oh, yes.

Dave:Even when we’re reading your book, we screenshot it and sent it to our kids: “Look at the success rate in marriages that just have a meal every day.” Do you guys do that?

Arlene:Yeah, we do, from the very beginning; and this is “Habits,” right? It’s “Habits”—

Ann:—”and Decisions.”

Arlene:If it’s “Habits and Decisions,”—if you don’t eat regularly together right now; after this conversation, you could, and make it easier—”So let’s try for once a week,” “…twice a week.” If you’re not eating at all, start with a smaller number and work up to it.

But basically, when we were first married, my husband—it was a given, because this is 26 years ago—it was pretty common, 26 years ago, that you just eat together every day.

Ann:People weren’t eating out as much.

Arlene:We never thought about it; we just did it. It’s like: “We eat. We’re hungry; let’s eat”; it wasn’t a big deal.

What my husband did/he said, “The first 30 days of our marriage, let’s not turn on the TV.” He wanted the first 30 days; he’s like, “I don’t want to just watch TV. At the end of the day, I want to talk to you and stuff.” I was like, “Okay.”

Ann:I like James!

Arlene:That was weird to me; yeah, that was weird to me. I worked in television; I was working at the 700 Club before I got married. It was like, “I can’t watch TV?” It wasn’t easy, but it set the tone that we talk at dinnertime.

That has truly carried out, 26 years later, three kids later. We probably have every dinner together. It’s very odd—obviously, if I’m out of town, we’re not having dinner together—but even if there’s a sports event or something, we would usually have the dinner before or after, together around a table, not in cars. This is a habit, and it really is something that brings you together. You have to eat; so that way, you’re listening to each other, talking to each other every single day.

Ann:I’m guessing you have no devices.

Arlene:There’s no devices at the table. They’re on the bookshelf behind, and that’s that. Nothing’s on, except music; and we’re talking.

Ann:That does not happen as much anymore.

Dave:No, families don’t sit down; couples don’t sit down—not once a day—maybe, once a week.

Arlene:Just to sit down. Even if you eat for 20 minutes/15 minutes—but you’re sitting across from each other with food, with no devices; and you’re actually talking to each other—maybe, the first time, you’re kind of like, “Well, this is weird.” Then, you both instinctively want to reach out for your phone and do something. Don’t do it!

Picture that phone like a third person. You’d not have another woman; you wouldn’t have another man sitting with you. Here’s your phone distracting you, because it knows every single thing about you. Just think: “It’s watching you all the time, and seeing what you like; and then, showing it to you. No human can do that—observe you all the time and do that—so to realize: “I need to put that third person away from me as much as possible to spend time with my spouse.”

Ann:And this isn’t something you’re just like, “Hey, this is a good idea to have dinner together.” This is what I sent our kids: “If you have children, researchers have found eating family meals together improves your kids’ academic performance; increases their confidence; improves cardiovascular health; and reduces the risk of substance abuse, depression, teen pregnancy, and obesity.” What in the world?!

Arlene:Because you’re serving more nutritious food; you are having conversations; your kids feel loved and connected to you; they feel belonging so they don’t have to look for the love in those other places. It is kind of crazy to think of the protective nature of a family dinner. I mean, grandma knew all along: it’s just gather people around food, and talk to them, and make them belong somewhere. That solves so many problems.

We think, “Complex.” We think: “Oh, my goodness, my kids are going crazy,” “My marriage is in the garbage.” We think we have so many complex problems, but complex problems don’t require complex solutions. It could be as simple of a solution to make your marriage easier, like, “Hey, let’s start eating together again. Let’s do it once a week; and then, let’s do it twice a week; and then, let’s have coffee in the morning if we can’t do dinner. But let’s do something every day where we’re just like, ‘Hey, I’m here for you. Let’s eat together and just start there.’”

Ann:That’s awesome.

Dave:That’s good.

Then, you go into: “You can say anything.” You read that; and you’re like, “Well, no; I don’t think so.”

Arlene:Yeah; “I really can’t!” But you can in the Pellicane household!

Dave:Well, tell us about electrolysis. That was hilarious.

Ann:This is the funniest thing.

Arlene:As you can already tell, my husband James is not like the run-of-the-mill person; he just does things differently. Actually,—you probably can decide if you want to edit this out or not—there’s no such thing as a run-of-the-mill person, so that’s probably not good. My husband James is a very unusual person, as you can tell. When we were very seriously dating—so we’re falling in love; we are in graduate school—it’s kind of his first serious girlfriend. He’s just thinking through this: “I really want to tell her something, but I don’t know if I can.” We’re on this date; and he says to me, “I want to ask you a question, but I just don’t know how to say it.”

I’m thinking, “Oh, I hope this is not the proposal. This would be so lame if this was the proposal.” I say, “You can tell me anything, baby.” He’s like, “Well, you have these hairs on your upper lip. I’m wondering if you’ve ever considered electrolysis.” That is just the last thing I would’ve ever thought anyone would say to me. I was like, “Well, I’ve never thought of that before. Look at the time; I have to go.” I was just so awkward. I went back home, and I went to the bathroom. I looked in the mirror, Dave; and this hair that had been there all my life, all of a sudden, I was like, “Oh, my word; I have a mustache. Oh, my word; this is so embarrassing.”

Dave:You never saw it before.

Arlene:I never noticed it in my whole life. I’m just like, “It’s fuzzy; big deal.” I’m not like a spa girl: I don’t do my nails; I don’t go out and do all these things. I get the phone book—yellow pages—“Laser, laser, laser, laser, laser, laser”; I go to a laser place. I literally call and get three sessions to zap my lip. At that time, it was like a zap; and it hurt. I think it’s painless now, but it hurt. When I did all these things, we did not get into a fight. I actually zapped my lip, and got rid of the hairs on my lip. James was like, “Oh, my word; I think I could marry this girl, because now she doesn’t have hair on her lip. And now I know I really could tell her anything.”

In his defense—because people just go wild: “I cannot believe that your husband would dare/your boyfriend: how dare he say to you: ‘You should go get some electrolysis.’ How dare he?”—in his mind/he tells me, “I’m thinking about asking you to marry me. That means we are going to make big decisions together: ‘What are we going to do with the money?’ ‘Where are we going to live?’ ‘How many children are we going to have?’ These are big decisions. If I cannot talk to you about the hair on your lip, honestly, this is not going to work.” It was so funny.

And really, when our spouse tells us something that’s so awkward and whatever—but there’s that hint of truth—I really did have hair on my lip, and it really did help me to get electrolysis. So again, we’re looping back to humility, the ability—

Dave:That’s what I was going to say: you—

Arlene:—to be able to be like, “You know what?

Ann:You received it.

Arlene:“I guess I do.”

I think it is something we can learn. If, naturally, you’re very defensive, and you’re easily-offended, this is something you can learn: “You know what, God? Help me to be—’Love covers a multitude of sins,’ so help me to be more gracious. Help me to just not be so offendable.”

We are living in times where it’s like you have the right to be offended. In fact, if you are living unoffended, then you must be not looking at something; you’re just “Pie in the sky.” We’re just told you got to be offended about something. For us to realize: “That’s not a fun way to live, especially, not in a marriage.”

Dave:But can you say anything? If that conversation had been—and again, this is before you’re married—if it had been: “You need to lose 50 pounds,” or “…25 pounds.” Is it any different? To you, it would probably been: “Okay.” A lot of people would be like: “The hair on my face, or talking about my weight is off limits.”

Arlene:We are very protective about our appearance and those things. There is an openness, and it’s hard. We still have those conversations—James and I still have these kinds of conversations—every marriage does. In the moment, a lot of times, what I will do is I will be like, “I cannot believe we’re talking about this,”—something like that—”I cannot believe/do you not know that I’m doing so much better than ‘x,’ ‘y,’ and ‘z’ amount of people out there?”

That’s kind of how we are: we think, “I’m doing so good, and I can’t believe you’re not seeing that I’m doing so good.” Sometimes, you just draw away for a little bit. By a little bit, I mean an hour—I’m not talking about six months or anything—but you just say, “Lord, soften my heart towards this. Help my spouse to see me,” “…to be kind to me,”—whatever it is—pray about whatever’s happening.

If you’re the one presenting the hard truth—when he told me about the lip, and when he tells me about the pounds, or anything like that—let’s say he’s not saying it in a snobby, snarky way. He’s trying to be as humble as possible.

Ann:It sounds like he’s speaking the truth in love.

Arlene:He’s trying his best to speak the truth in love.

Dave:Have you ever had to say anything to him about the hair on his forehead or the hair under his armpit? I don’t know;—

Arlene:Exactly!

Dave:—anything that you’ve had to call out?

Arlene:Not the hair; he takes care of his own hair. But yeah, when there are things to say, then it’s usually: “Something that would really help me would be: if you would ‘x,’ ‘y,’ ‘z’…” is usually how I say it. And then, he is actually receptive to that. That is what gives that nice give-and-take of that; we can talk about these things together.

Maybe, you’re listening—and you’re the spouse, who’s like, “No, you cannot tell me things,”—then, it’s our queue, like, “Hey, let’s be that open, safe spouse: ‘You could tell me things.’”

If you’re the one, who’s always spouting all the corrections, then, “Hey, maybe it’s time to not spout so many corrections.” Make sure that you do have that ratio—John Gottman’s ratio—of five positive things to one negative thing. You’ve got to have a big storage of positive things towards your spouse in order to say anything; or else, that mean thing you say is not working.

You got to have that stream. Start with that stream; and then, bring up with prayer: “God soften our hearts towards this.” Always, the point is: “We want to grow closer together, as a couple. I’m doing this for your good/our good—not: “It’s just what I want; you got to do it my way”; that doesn’t usually go over well—but: “This is good for both of us.”

Ann:You talk about it in the terms of a dragon—a small dragon—talk about that. What do you mean by that?

Arlene:Yeah, there was a book—and in the book there is a real dragon—the little boy’s like, “Look, Mom, there’s a dragon.” It’s this little cute dragon. She’s like, “There’s no such thing as dragons.” And then, as the book continues, the dragon gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger, and bigger. She keeps saying, “There’s no such thing as dragons,” until it gets so big that it drags off the house and all this. Finally, she says, “Oh, yeah; I guess there is such a thing as a dragon.” Once she acknowledges that dragon, it goes—whoop!—right back down to the little tiny size.

The idea is: “Sometimes, one of the spouses is saying, ‘Hey, we have this problem.’ And the other spouse is like, ‘We don’t have a problem. We’re fine; we’re fine.’” “This problem is just so huge because you will just not acknowledge the problem.” Once that spouse says, “Yeah, we do have a problem,” all of a sudden, that huge dragon—that you think will just take you down—gets right back to a size you can manage, where both of you can acknowledge: “Hey, this is something we got to work on.”

Ann:That was Dave and me; because I would say, “You’re not home. You’re never home.” He would say, “I am home; I’m totally home.” I’m saying, “We’ve got this humongous dragon.” He goes, “No, we don’t.” Even if you don’t think there’s a dragon—if your spouse is saying there is one—there is one.

Arlene:There is one.

Dave:There are untouchables for couples—you mentioned them—like: “How does a couple talk about sex?”

Ann:—pornography.

Dave:Yeah; there’s a whole list in the book.

Ann:Yeah, I loved your list: sex, pornography, opposite-sex friends, video gaming, phone use, unhealthy weights, spiritual compatibility, politics, in-laws and extended family, and death. We all have our issues and topics that we kind of lean away from, because there’ll be a conflict. How do you and James enter into that? Talk to the person, who’s maybe: “This is super hard for me to even bring up, because they’re so defensive.” How do we start?

Arlene:Yeah, I think asking questions of the other person. Let’s say you are the person who wants to talk about it. If you’re the person, who doesn’t want to talk about it, you’re not doing anything; you’re just going to sit there.

Dave:You’re avoiding.

Arlene:But if you’re the person, who wants to talk about it, then asking questions that are calibrated—questions that you’ve thought about and that you might start with—”Hey, I’ve been thinking about our money,” or “…our sex life,” or “I’m concerned about pornography. I know this may be very awkward, but we need to talk about it.” And then, asking questions.

And then, it’s hard; it’s awkward. Put yourself in the other person’s shoes. Start with some accusation of yourself, like, “Hey, I know this is going to be awkward. You’re going to think I’m the nosy wife,”—“You’re going to think I’m too strong of a husband,”—but I care about you too much. I want to have this conversation. Do you think we could?”

Most people will be like, “Okay, do it.” And then, make it easy: I think the first time you ask it, don’t ask the super, super hard thing. Just kind of, with the start: “Hey, it’s been a while since we’ve had sex. Is there anything I could do to make this better for you?”

Ann:That’s so good; you’re owning it yourself.

Arlene:And just start there. And then, maybe that’s all you can handle right then; and that’s fine. And then, you kind of build on that. But I think sex is a big one.

Ann:Me too.

Arlene:That’s the big one in our marriage. I think in a lot of marriages is—I write in the book about how the woman is like, “Why does he want it?”—not exactly, but something like this—”Why does he want it so much?” And the husband’s saying, “Why does she want it so little?” She’s thinking, “I hope he doesn’t touch me; I want to go to sleep.” And he’s thinking, “Why doesn’t she touch me anymore? She doesn’t want me anymore.” And it could be the reverse way too—and it goes the reverse way too—but it’s some kind of incompatibility.

What really helped me was talking with Shaunti Feldhahn. She and

Dr. Michael Sytsma have done this research, showing that there is that receptive desire and that initiating desire. I know you all have talked about that, and it was so helpful. Kind of sad for James, as a typical male—and again, it can go either way—the males initiate, and the women receive. And that initiation—it’s like what you see in the movies—like they both want it so bad. So you’re thinking, “Oh, we both always have to want it so badly, so passionately.” My poor sweet James is thinking, “Why is she not like that? Why doesn’t she act like that?”

Dave:Every husband’s thinking that.

Arlene:Right? And then,—

Ann:Not every; but yeah, most.

Arlene:Many, many, many.

Ann:—for sure.

Arlene:And then, he realizes, “Oh, she’s receptive; she’ll respond.” But there’s a little bit of mourning in that; because he’s thinking, “I wish she would be the initiator. I wish she would want me like I want her.”

The ability to have these kinds of talks is really huge. Let’s say your sex life is not exactly where you want it; but at least, you’re able to talk about it. That is the first step to being like, “It’s not a taboo topic; let’s talk about this.” Because if you can talk about it, then statistically, you’re going to do a lot better. Because usually, if you’re open to communication about it, it’s going to get better.

Ann:And you’re right. If we don’t talk about it, it can just grow in our heads.

Arlene:—the dragon.

Ann:The dragon gets bigger and bigger—and the enemy, man, when it’s in our heads, and in the darkness—he wins. But to bring it into the light—to talk to your spouse about it—that’s a win, even though it can be weird, and awkward, and difficult.

Arlene:And that helped you to realize: “This is a decision.” It’s a decision to make sex part of your regular rhythm of marriage. I used to think, “Oh, well, that’s not good; I have to feel like it. It’s not honest if I don’t feel like it.” But then I realized, “You can decide to do this.” Just like you decide to pick up the kids and smile when they get in the car, even when you don’t feel like it; you can decide: ‘I’m going to be happy.’” You know what I mean? And then, being receptive, you become happy. You might not start that way; but then, you do.

It is this good thing of: “Okay, this is something worth talking about and worth scheduling.” I remember hearing, very early in our marriage: “If couples, who have kids, who do not schedule sex, do not have sex.” That really helped me to realize: “We have to schedule this; you schedule other things.”

Ann:Yes; and before we got married, I was like, “That’s so awful. How depressing is that?

Arlene:Awful: schedule it on the calendar like a doctor’s appointment or something.”

Ann:Get out your calendar—and you have to—that’s so good.

Dave:Well, I’m listening right now, thinking, “There’s a wife or a husband—both listening—and I just want to say to you: ‘This conversation about sex, or pornography, or money takes courage; sometimes, because we’re afraid to go there. Maybe, it’s not gone well before when you tried to bring it up. I just want to encourage you to pray.”

Ann:Yes, pray first.

Dave:And the dragon idea—dragons: if they’re going to destroy you, you have to attack. You can’t just like, “Oh”; you got to go after it.

Arlene:You don’t want to learn to live with this.

Dave:I would encourage you tonight to say, “Okay, God, give me the courage. I got to bring this up.” Bring it up tenderly and gently, but have the conversation about sex or whatever it is. I know it’s been—I’ve said many times—I can preach or be on a stage and talk about sex with thousands of people; but to go in a kitchen or a bedroom and say, “Hey, can we talk about…”—it’s harder, much harder; it’s intimate.

This isn’t intimate—it looks intimate, like, “Wow, he’s being vulnerable, talking to all these people,”—but I don’t know you; we’re not going to talk about it later. But this is our life [with our spouse], and that’s a scary thing that takes courage. I love your principle: “You can say, ‘You can talk about anything.’” Do it!

Hey, in the same one—“Play by the rules”—you have the whole thing about kids.

Ann:Oh, I think this is huge.

Dave:We got to have a conversation about that because kids—I saw somebody on YouTube or some marriage couple talking—and they use this visual. They had a couple kids on stage with them. The husband and wife were standing, talking to the audience. They separated, and brought the kids, and put them right in between them; and stood in a line. They said, “This should not be your marriage.”

And then, they put the kids behind them; they put the husband and wife together; and they said, “This should be your marriage. Don’t let them become between you. They’re important; but when they come in between you and your wife—they’re more important than a husband or the wife—you’re going to have problems. They need to be following you; you need to be leading them.” Is that true?

Arlene:Oh, that’s so good and so true.

Ann:It’s so hard for me. Especially, I’ve seen—

Dave:—and now, grandkids.

Ann:—in blended families too—if kids have gone through a divorce, I think it’s really easy for a mom or a dad: “I want to protect my kids and make them feel secure in this new marriage.” It’s really easier even for them, and it feels right to: “Protect my kids.” There is some truth to that, but to make your marriage a priority is not always easy.

Arlene:Yes, we’ll give lip service, like, “Oh, yeah, my marriage is important. It’s a priority, yes.” But when it all comes down to it: “Who, in your family, do you treat the best?” Oh, my goodness; I’d have to be, like, “Oh, my youngest daughter, Lucy, the one who’s living at home with us.” I’m having to retool, and be like, “I should be treating James the best.” Because I’ll think about it—when kids come into the picture, when they’re babies—the whole world revolves around them. And that should be; because the baby needs you to be alive. But soon after, the baby doesn’t need you to be alive; you need to get back to normal.

But most of us, especially in our culture today, we do not get back to normal. We are still child-centered—everything’s about the kid—the vacation’s about the kid; where we eat is about the kid; our rhythms, how we spend our time is all about the kids. If we do that, well, no wonder the growing of divorce is happening. Kids leave; and then, mom and dad look at each other; because they became mom and dad. They weren’t even husband and wife anymore; it’s like the roles flipped. Instead of being husband, wife, mom, dad, they became just mom and dad; and that [couple-ness] was lost.

It’s really important to keep dating. Research says: “Even if you just date once a month, you’re doing better because 50 percent of couples go out like three or four times a year.”

Ann:Is that what the stats are?

Arlene:Yes, it’s crazy! If you will date once a month or more, you’ll see—and this is Brad Wilcox’s research—he says that you’ll get a 15 percent boost: in communication, not likely to divorce, sexual intimacy, overall happiness—all those things. It is this idea of: “Hey, I can leave the kids with a babysitter,” “I can leave the kids with mom and dad,”—whatever that trusted person is—”and I will go out with my spouse.”

My husband and I have not done this perfectly, for sure; but we did that yearly getaway, where you’re just 24 hours. I live in San Diego, so it’s super easy: you just have to go downtown 24 hours. That 24 hours just shifts everything; because you remember: “Oh, my goodness, we are a couple.

Ann:“Oh, I like you so much.”

Arlene:“It’s kind of fun to just be us, not to have to worry about where the kids are and what they’re doing.”

And now, we still do it. My daughter, Lucy, who is a sophomore in high school, was so cute; because she was as excited as we were. It was weird; I didn’t realize that. She was like, “Mom, you guys are going on your little date tomorrow. I’m so excited for you guys!” I was like, “This is funny.” She was almost more excited than me. I was thinking, “I got to pack my bag; I got to do these things.” And then, I realized: “Our kids—it’s so healthy for them—when they see mom and dad love each other; they enjoy being together: ‘They’re going to have a little getaway’; they’re excited that you’re going to do this. It was like, ‘This is amazing’.”

Really, the service you can do for your children, by loving your spouse is huge! I call it the tennis test. I will sit in a car—and wait an hour for my girls to come out of tennis practice—when they were both in tennis in high school. I just sit in the car; they’d say, “Mom, it’s running late,” “Fine; no problem,”—sit in the car; read a book; no problem. But if my husband told me to: “Pick me up at 5:00,”—

Ann:That’s so good, Arlene.

Arlene:—and then, texted me, like, “Oh, it’s running late; I’ll be out in an hour,”—I’d be like: “An hour?! Lyft home. Do you know how much I have to do?” I’d be so mad.

Ann:That is so true.

Arlene:And then, it’s just like, “Why would I do that so much for my girls so easily, but not for my husband?” It is a thing for us.

Dave:Why do it? Why is it like this?

Arlene:We love our kids so much; we’re crazy about them.

Ann:It’s like a covenantal love with our kids. It is. It’s just easy. You love them unconditionally.

Dave:We are in a marriage covenant.

Ann:That’s what I’m saying—this one is just an easy: “I love you unconditionally,”—this one [marriage]: “Man, it should be just like that.”

Arlene:Yeah; “We’re both adults; you should take care of yourself.”

Ann:We have expectations.

Arlene:“But I’ll take care of these kids and do all these extra things for them.”

Ann:I know; it’s crazy.

Well, I think this is a really good conversation to have with your spouse. I love that you get into this of: “Here’s something you can ask your spouse:

In what ways are we a child-centric home?

Are there any changes we need to make?

As a listener, I hope that you’ll ask your husband this—or ask your wife this—“Are we a child-centric home?” Don’t get defensive; because I know Dave’s already going to say, “No, we’re a grandchild-centric home.” I know that he’ll say that. My thought is:—

Dave:“How do you not get defensive?”; because you’ve gotten defensive about that.

Ann:“Well, I’m with you all the time: I travel with you; we work together. We’re with each other constantly, and we’re not with them as much.” So I need to pray.

If your husband comes to you—or your wife—”Hey, I have something I really want to talk about,”—that may not be easy—“But here’s what I’ve been feeling lately…” Even to say: “And maybe, I’m wrong,”—even to say that—that’s a humble—

Arlene:Yes, I like that.

Ann:—“Maybe, I’m wrong; but I’m feeling like, ‘Am I as important?’” I think it’s just a great question. Your spouse might get defensive, but don’t get discouraged.

Dave:They will get defensive—I’ve been there—I get defensive.

Ann:Don’t get discouraged. Because even if they react instead of respond, God is still working. When I walk away, I can hear the whisper of the Holy Spirit convicting me. I can feel it; can’t you?

Arlene:Yes, yes. A lot of times, it’s the mom. A lot of times we, moms, are like, “Oh, but junior”—”and this and this,”—and “They have to be in ten things.” It could be a small, simple solution of: “Hey, you guys have to pick the same activity. We cannot run all around town.” We have three kids: they all played the piano; they all did martial arts.

Ann:We did that too.

Arlene:That was James; he was like, “We cannot run all around creation. They have to just do one thing.” I was like, “Okay.”

Ann:That’s really smart.

Dave:Okay, we’ve only talked about one decision.

Arlene:We have a long way to go; don’t we?

Dave:We could keep going, too—because there’s even more things—but the second one is what?—“Give thanks”?

Arlene:“Give thanks every day.”

Dave:What’s that look like?—like every day.

Arlene:Every day. Instead of being like, “Oh, I’m going to look for all the deficiencies,” say, “No, I’m going to thank God.” If you live, in your marriage, in a spirit of thanksgiving—you were thankful when you met him or her; you were just like, “Oh, my word; I cannot believe I found this person,” like a treasure—and you’re so thankful.

Ann:You see all the great things.

Arlene:You’re so, so thankful. To keep that going—and it’s the will of God—all of us would think, many times, “God, what do You want me to do in my life? I want to follow Your will. I want to follow Your will.” It’s right there in the Bible to rejoice, and to give thanks, and to pray. When we give thanks for our spouse, it changes everything; and you will find what you are looking for. If you’re looking for ways to be grateful, you’ll find it.

Dave:And you sort of have to look.

Arlene:You have to look.

Dave:Because, like you said at the beginning: “You see it; it’s right there; you love it. And then, you see all the negatives; you see all the weakness. You get hurt; they don’t show up. They may break a vow or a promise, and you are really hurt. And so you’re like, “Okay, be thankful.” How do you get back to that?

Arlene:You think of Job: “Though He slay me, yet I will praise Him.” It is: “God, if there’s nothing I can be thankful for in this moment—for my spouse and where we are—I’m just going to be thankful that You are with me in the dark, that You’re going to get us through this.” If couples will stick it out through the hard times—stick out that three-, four-, five-year period that’s so hard—research says that they’re going to find happiness on the other side; they’re not going to stay stuck forever.

I think thanksgiving is really a key way to get out of that—thanking God: “I thank You for the way that You’re working,”—just say, “I thank You he got out of bed, and he got himself to work. A lot of men don’t do that, so I’m going to thank You for that,” or “I thank You, God, she made a dinner. It was hardly edible; but it’ll nourish me, and I’ll get through the day,”—whatever.

Just start thanking God for things—small things—and write them down if you’re having trouble. My husband—one week, he wrote down each day one thing for each day; and then, he gave it to me—he showed me this list: “Monday, you take Lucy to school; and you’re cheerful when you do that,” “Tuesday, when I come home, you have dinner waiting for me.” He just had written down these little things that he had noticed.

Like you’re saying, Dave, it’s the effort of noticing. Can you imagine if you actually wrote it down; and then, you actually showed it to your spouse? It’s pretty easy; that’s not hard to do. You just take a little Post-it note: “Monday, you smelled good,” “Tuesday…”—it doesn’t matter. And then, you give it to them at the end of the week; say, “I appreciate you.” That could start just turning the ship on this whole complaining. I mean, you all have a friend who is very negative and very complaining. Who wants to be with this negative complaining person?—nobody.

Ann:That’s what I was going to ask you: “When you saw that list, were you motivated to be even more like that?” versus “If you saw a list, or if your husband or your wife just said, “Hey, here’s what you did wrong today…”; that is the most demotivating; isn’t it?

Arlene:Yes, we want a good name to live up to. It’s Dale Carnegie: How to Win Friends and Influence People: “Give someone a good name to live up to”; so you show them: “Hey, I’m thankful for these things…” “I really appreciate that about you.” Guess what?—I’m going to do that and more next week.

Ann:I think, too—we get into this in our new book too—the neurological pathways that are now formed in the brain. If you’re constantly seeing the negative, you’re creating neurological pathways of going down this negative route so that all you see is the negative.

But if you say something—and I’ll say this too; it’s an act of your will to be able to look for something—you’re doing it intentionally. It’s not—here’s what I would’ve thought before—”I should feel so good about him; and then, I can say something.” No; you’re looking for the greatness; you see the greatness. Whether you feel like it or not, you say it, or write it, or you text it; and then, you start looking: “I’m going to start looking: ‘What did he do right today?’” That changes a lot.

Dave:I tell you: for me, when I’m hearing this—say it out loud—I have, many times, thought it and never spoken it; and she doesn’t know.

Arlene:Your spouse has no idea that you’ve been thinking these really great things about her.

Dave:Yeah, I thought it this weekend—laying in that stupid tent—

Ann:—camping.

Dave:—on a cot with this mattress we had to blow up.

Ann:And there were these huge beetles in the tent.

Arlene:No; inside?

Ann:Inside.

Dave:Oh, yeah. We don’t know what we’re doing; we leave the flap open. We’re like,—

Arlene:Oh, no!

Dave:Yeah; “We need to zip that thing up.” It was raining; and it was soggy and wet. Ann fell in the mud when she’s going to the bathroom, in the middle of the night, in the middle of the woods. Anyway, I remember thinking I had the most amazing wife that would even do this with me.

Ann: Wait! What?! Did you think that?!

Dave:That’s why I’m saying it right now. It’s like, “Did I say it?” She didn’t even know.

Ann:What?!

Dave:I literally thought: “There are a lot of women who would say, ‘I’m not doing this thing. You want to speak in a marriage retreat? You go ahead; I’m not doing it.’” And even the leader/the pastor said, “Hey, there’s a house on the grounds. You guys can stay in there, but we’d really like you to be with the couples.” She could have said, “We’re staying there.” I did drive by that house, and I thought, “That’d be nice to have that toilet.”

Arlene:“Can you imagine?”

Dave:“Running water; that’d be nice.”

Arlene:Instead of going to the bathroom outside, you could have been in there.

Dave:“Thank you.” I’m just thinking, “Thank you; you’re an amazing teammate to do that.” It was a great weekend; but man, it was hard.

Ann:It was so gross, so gross.

Dave:And I’m just thinking—it was gross; it was gross—I didn’t change my underwear the whole weekend. “I’m not getting out of my underwear and putting on those shorts.” I just stay in them.

Ann:This girl gives me this giant wipe; she goes, “We can’t shower out here.” I’m like, “This is so gross.”

Dave:Is that what that was?

Ann:Yes, I’m basically taking wipes and cleaning myself.

Arlene:Oh, my word.

Ann:But thanks for saying, “Thanks.”

Dave:Well, think about that: “What kind of idiot doesn’t say it out loud?—’Thank you, honey.’” I’m thinking there’s husbands listening, or wives going, “Yeah, my husband never does.” Say it tonight.

Ann:You be the one.

Dave:“Write it down.” Ann shared on stage—and it’s in her book about our friend, Michelle, who did what you said, Arlene—she started writing down, because she was critical of Rob.

Ann:And words aren’t quite as easy for everyone.

Dave:She just started writing down over—not just every day—but when she saw something and she was thankful for. She gave it to him on his birthday.

Ann:She’s been doing it for years now.

Dave:It was like a journal; she looks over, and he’s weeping. Those words of gratefulness were so powerful. I think she does it every year.

Ann:She does.

Dave:It’s like he just weeps. Your husband/your wife will weep—maybe, not weep—but it’ll be that powerful. We often are ungrateful when we could be grateful.

I don’t know—I’m looking at all these things under “Give Thanks Every Day”—and “You don’t need stuff to be happy.” Yeah, you do; what are you talking about?—“Comfort is overrated.”

Ann:Well, I want to hit—you when you talk about: “But I’m not happy”; the person reading this is thinking, “But I’m not happy,”—“You want me to give thanks every day; I’m not happy.” And you kind of hit that of: “You can choose that.” Was there anything else that you’ve learned about that?

Arlene:I think when we’re shooting for the happy—”I want to be happy; this is not making me happy,”—it’s like the rule: “Everything you’re going through—you’re like, ‘Let me just gauge: “Did that make me happy?”’—you’re not going to be happy; you’re just searching for it.” It really—that joy, happiness, gladness—comes really from giving, from serving, from being thankful.

Dave:That’s Decision Number Three.

Arlene:That’s Decision Number Three: “To Serve Your Spouse.” You’ve been reading your book, Dave. You’re doing so good.

But when we’re just chasing that happiness, I think it eludes us. And when we realize that—“Wait, this happiness will come when I do the right thing,”—the feeling comes after the behavior.

Ann:That is so contrary to the culture.

Arlene:It’s like, “Hey, we talked in the earlier broadcast about humility; and the Bible tells us to clothe ourself with humility. We put it on; it’s not natural. We walk around without it.” In the same way, it’s like we have to put on this good stuff that’s not natural—and that joy comes—that joy comes because, when you are thankful for your spouse, then it’s very hard to feel thankful and unhappy; they don’t coexist.

If you need—”I wish I was more happy,”—”I wish I was more happy,” then it’s like, “You know what? It’s that heart of contentment.” That’s what Dave talked about: “I don’t need more stuff.” You get the stuff: you get the house; you get the car; you get the new cool clothes—and it’s fun for a day; maybe, a few days if it’s a house, something big—but then, after a while, you’re used to it. It’s like, “Well, that didn’t do anything.”

Ann:I think what you’re saying, too: it’s a surrender. It’s a re-surrender every day of: “Lord, I give my life to You; I’m Yours. My joy, my happiness, my life comes from You.

Arlene:—“from You.”

Ann:“Now help me to pour out what You’ve poured into me.”

Arlene:And not to expect your spouse to make you happy: “You’re not making me happy.” My goodness, if it was my responsibility to make James happy, it’s like: “Wait; you’re putting all your happiness on me? I have to act like that?” It’s like, “I don’t want that responsibility”; so why would we give that responsibility to someone else? Remember, it’s God—it’s God who’s going to give you joy—and His presence is fullness of joy.

Ann:And how many times have people said, “We’re getting divorced; we’re just not happy anymore”?

Arlene:“We’re just not happy.”

Ann:“Welcome to the club!”

Dave:“ Who is?”

Ann:It’s a choice!

Dave:So how do you get out of a selfish perspective?—which is: “You need to serve me more,”—to a selfless perspective?—which is: “I want to lay down my life for her,” “I want to lay down my life for him. I want to do this.”

You say, “Serve.” How do I shift that mindset? It’s a mindset to get there.

Arlene:It may take something bad to happen—something bad to wake you up—to be like, “Oh, my word, this is not all about me. I need to serve; I need to serve my family. I need to do something.” Hopefully, you don’t have to wait for that. A lot of times, we have to wait for this bad thing—this shoe falls off, and you have to do something—so that’s when we change.

Instead, to realize: “Wait a minute; I am a selfish person.” We always think the other person is a selfish person: “My husband is so selfish.” My husband James—he had said the other day—I had said something: “Oh, well, you’re so selfish. You want to do the things you want to do.” Then he’s like—because we go on ski trips, because he and the kids love to ski—and I’m terrified of skiing. I’ve done the thing so I can do the Greens, and they’re Black Diamond. In my mind, I’ll think, “You’re so selfish. We always have to vacation where you want a vacation.”

It took me a while—and that was service—to realize: “This is a blessing that my kids and James can make these memories. I can sit in a cabin and read a book in the snow. This is beautiful, and this is a blessing.” But it was, at first: “You’re so selfish; you want to do these things…”

Ann:And you could have thought, “I want to be at the beach.”

Arlene:Yeah; “I want to do something different.” And then, he will say, “Well, you’re selfish, too”. And you think, “I’m not selfish”; but then, you realize: “Of course, I am. I want a vacation where I want a vacation. We’re all selfish; we all want what we want.” To realize: “Oh, my goodness, I can serve you.” Service, for a Christian, is a promotion. For the unbelieving world, it’s like you don’t want to be a servant: “Have people walk all over you; you’re going to lose your voice; you’re going to lose your identity; you’re going to lose who you are, serving that other person.”

Jesus says, “I’ve come as a servant”; my goodness, if Jesus can do it. And then, in the Old Testament, David, Moses, Joshua—they’re called servants of God: My servant—it’s like the higher/closer you’re to God, the more you’re a servant. Where else can you learn to serve? What better place? It’s easier to serve someone, one hour—let’s say at church, and please do that—so you can do that; and then, you can go home.

But when you serve at home—you serve your spouse—man, that’s 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, nonstop.

Ann:Nobody sees it.

Arlene:That’s the place to say: “Okay, instead of saying, ‘What have you done for me lately?’ ‘God’—it’s a change of heart—’God change my heart; change my heart, that I would wake up, and say, “How can I serve you today?”’” And you know what? You might not feel it, but just ask the question: “Hey, is there anything I can do for you today?” Just by asking the question, you’re starting to act in a way that is pleasing to God; and the feelings will follow.

Dave:It’s such a paradox. It feels like our whole life—and we’re even told this—“Pursue the title; that’s your goal, “Get the title; get the corner office; get the house; get the stuff,”—that’s the American dream: “Go for it.”

Jesus said, “Pursue putting a towel over your arm and washing people’s feet.” Jesus had the title—the greatest title ever known—

Ann:—King of kings.

Dave:—“the Man; the King of the universe”—and He washed these dirty disciples. That’s what He calls us to in marriage—that’s not easy—that is a selfless act.

Arlene:When you said that, I think of the person, listening, who is in leadership in their job; and that’s good, and that’s blessed. But when you come home, home is the opportunity to put on the towel and to wash the feet; that’s where you can show that.

Ann:And I’m telling you: when a spouse serves you, that’s humbling, in a way. It makes you want to serve back—it changes your heart—it’s such a lowly position.

Arlene:We are wired for reciprocity. If your neighbor comes and brings you a little cake, then you’re like, “Oh, next time, I got to bring the neighbor a cake now; because I owe that neighbor a cake.” We are kind of built that way. In marriage, if you’re married to a good and decent person, they’re going to reciprocate, over time, that service.

Ann:I have to go back, because I feel like we missed this little part; I have to go to it. It’s what you call “cute girl” and “happy boy.” Go back to that; because you start out talking about just your wedding registry, and how your expectations were different from one another. In marriage, that is so true.

Arlene:Women are different; and then, your personalities will be different. Everything’s different. And when you’re engaged, you’re like, “This is awesome; it’s so much fun!” And then, when you’re married for a while, you’re like, “This person is driving me crazy.”

Ann:Yes.

Arlene:We were in two different cities, engaged; because of our jobs. I told James, “Hey, we don’t want to spend”—we were spending one weekend a month, visiting one another; and we didn’t want to spend all that precious time, just in a store, doing registry—so I told him, “Why don’t you go to this superstore kind of place and just scan whatever you want for our house?” He’s like, “Okay.” I go back, and I go to the superstore. I put in my name—I’m so excited—I have a name in a wedding registry. I’m typing in my name: “This is amazing.”

The little sheets get printed out. I’m reading.

Ann:Have you already filled out your part of it?

Arlene:I’ve done my—but I went to the nice department store—and I sent him to this superstore kind of place. I had done the high-end stuff; and then, I said, “Oh, yeah; you get our stuff.” I’m looking, and it’s like a tent and a lantern. I am like, “Why in the world would we need this? What in the world?” And then, I keep reading; and I’m like, “Pharmaceuticals?” It says: “Tylenol, Advil, Tums, KY Jelly”. I’m like, “Wait; what?!” And then, there was bug spray, ant spray, wasp spray, mousetraps. I was like, “There must be a mistake!” I’m reading; and honestly, maybe we were the only registry with those titles: “Pesticides.” We’d have things listed; I am freaking out.

Ann:Were you embarrassed?

Arlene:I was so—

Ann:Could people see that already, publicly?

Arlene:I was so embarrassed. I think he had just scanned it the day before, so I don’t think so. We didn’t have cell phones back then, so I couldn’t just call him right then. I went home; I dialed up the phone. I said, “That’s so funny. You are doing a practical joke for your groomsmen,”—because that’s the only—

Ann:You didn’t say that.

Arlene:Yes, because that’s the only explanation I could think of. I’m like, “That’s really funny—you put all those items—so they would laugh. That is awesome; that’s hilarious.” Total quiet; he’s like, “What? It’s not a joke.” I was like, “How could this not be a joke?!” He said, “You told me I could put things that I want for my house.” He’s like, “I don’t want a dish; I don’t want candles. I want stuff—

Ann:“I want a camping stove.”

Arlene:—that I really will use in my house. Those things are expensive, and I want them in my house.”

I could not believe, Ann, that I was the one having to defend that there was like bug spray on my wedding registry. I just could not barely even believe it.

Ann:Tums and—

Arlene:I was like: “Word picture; word picture.” I heard in counseling, then: “Word pictures.”

Dave:Oh, yeah.

Arlene:I said, “Imagine, Dear, you’re going to the queen. She unwraps your beautifully-wrapped present, and there’s Windex inside. Sweetheart, people do not give these kinds of presents at weddings; they just don’t do it. They will give us cash, Babe; and then, we can buy these kinds of items.”

We negotiated; and all of the weird stuff—the pharmaceuticals, et cetera, and pesticides came off—we kept all the tent stuff. At that point, the tent stuff looked really good to me: “Good idea; that’s awesome,” “That is great.”

That was my first taste—like, “Wow, we are really different,”—on our wedding invitations, you know how people write really pretty calligraphy.

Ann:Yes.

Arlene:He wanted for his friend, Bob—he called him “Bobbbb”—so he wanted to write on the envelope: B-O-O-O-B, which basically says “Boob.” He said, “I want that”; I’m like, “We cannot send out a wedding card, with calligraphy that says ‘Boob.’ We just can’t!” I think he let me do that; let me change that. But I gave him—his sister: he calls her “Gizzard Gank”—I have no idea why. Her invitation said, “Gizzard Gank”; so that was our exchange.

But you know what? It’s Decision Number Four: “Take Fun Seriously: Turn all the things that are silly into really fun things.” You might as well; you might as well.

Ann:This is huge; I think this is really important. We don’t do that after we’ve been married a while—life is hard.

Arlene:We’re so serious.

Ann:Kids are hard; people can think, “There’s not much to laugh about.” You have to intentionally have fun; because it doesn’t come naturally all the time when you’re in the middle of high-pressured, hard things—we are having aging parents, or we’re having babies—there’s things that are just really hard.

How have you and James—I’m telling you: you need to bring James back the next time—

Dave:I want to meet this guy.

Arlene:Yes! You could grill him; please do.

Ann:No, Dave would totally love him.

Dave:Oh, he’s my guy.

Arlene:He’s your guy.

Dave:Even as you shared a story, you could have responded—I’m not sure; this is before you’re married—”I’m learning things about him that I don’t like. He’s so different.” And you’re laughing about it, you know what I mean? Some couples—

Arlene:Maybe, that’s why James picked to me; it’s like: “She thinks it’s funny.”

Ann:But you know what, Dave? I think—because we just did that conference—I had a lot of women say to me/a lot of wives say, “My husband doesn’t ever tell me the truth. He avoids talking about things that could hurt me, because he knows I’ll get upset.”

We did a broadcast last month, I think—and Dave said, “I was looking across the table at you as we’re recording. I’m realizing your hair is totally messed up,”—and I’m like, “You didn’t say anything?!” He goes, “Should I have?”—like, “Yes!”

Dave:I don’t care about my hair, so why would you care about yours?

Ann:I think Dave is one who would tend to not say it. I think there’s a lot of men who could tend to lean that way.

Arlene:Yes; my husband is a “sayer”; it’s very easy. It’s hard for him not to say things.

Ann:I’m like that.

Arlene:So if you’re a husband, or a wife, and it’s very hard for you to say things, then the “act of service” is saying,—

Ann:That’s good.

Arlene:—“Let me tell you…”

Dave:If Ann and I got married, and she had hair above her lip, I probably wouldn’t have said anything for ten years.

Ann:You wouldn’t have said anything! But to me—

Dave:The whole time, I’d be like looking at it. I told her, one time in here, a couple of years ago, I go, “Hey, one of your teeth is a little crooked.”

Ann:“One tooth…” I said,—

Dave:I said, “Every time we’re in the studio, I look over; and it’s all I can see.” And she’s like, “What?!”

Ann:“You’re saying I have a snaggle tooth?”

Dave:“You sort of want to know, don’t you?” She’s like, “Yes”; so she has Invisalign now.

Arlene:Oh, my goodness.

Ann:I want to know those things that are true; I feel like it’s a gift. I will say this, too, after reading your book; I’m like, “Because I have blonde hair,”—but still, here’s my question—I said to one of my daughters-in-laws: “When I get old, and I can’t pluck any of those little white hairs, will you do it for me?” And now, I’m going to do electrolysis. Arlene, you’ve helped me; I’m just going to go do that.

Arlene:I just had to do it once; I’ve never done it since.

Ann:See, that’s what I’m saying.

Arlene: Thirty years; it will last.

Dave:How do you choose fun?

Arlene:You have to take fun seriously. Honestly, be like: “Hey, we actually have to do this. We think this is something we’ll do later—when we have money, when we have time, when the kids are grown—we all know we never have more time; we really never have more money. And then, the kids turn into grandkids. So it’s like these things will not happen; they’re an illusion.

A great question to ask is: “When was the last time we had fun together?”

Ann:That’s a good question.

Arlene:If it’s really like: “Wow, we have no answer; last Christmas?” So then: “Okay, we got to do this.” There is a list of activities in Making Marriage Easier. I suggest you look through this list; circle the ones that you could like—your favorites, of course—but just things you could do; and then, try to find things, in common, that you can do together.

Believe it or not, we have picked up ballroom dancing, which was my husband’s idea; he always thought it would be neat to be able to do.

Dave:Everybody talks about this. Is it really good?

Ann:We have it on the Love Like You Mean It cruise. People take lessons; they love it.

Arlene:It’s so fun; it’s so fun.

Dave:People love it on the cruise—

Arlene:It’s crazy; we started about two—

Dave:—we got to do this.

Arlene:I think you should do it. We started two and a half years ago. In our city, there is a big rec center kind of place. They do lessons for $8, so we took lessons. And then, when we got there, there were all these 60-and-up people. They’re all super good dancers.

Ann:Really?

Arlene:Yes; we get out there. We look, obviously, a big neon sign: “Help us,” “Help us,” “Help us.” It’s been so cute, because these people have been trying to teach us and help us. Literally, we just went last Friday. Now, we’re at the point where it’s actually—I, literally, said to James: “My goodness, it’s actually fun now,”—because, at first, you feel stupid. You don’t know what you’re doing.

Ann:You’re embarrassed; I would be embarrassed and humiliated.

Arlene:You’re embarrassed; you’re all these things. But if you stick with it, then it’s like, “Oh, my word; this is so fun.” We’re waltzing; it’s like a dream. You’re waltzing around this room to music with your spouse. It’s really fun. We figured dancing; because as we get older, you can still do it. It’s a way to move your body. It’s good for your mind—you have to remember—especially, for the man; the man has to lead. He has to think of all the steps. And then, it’s social; it puts you with people. We’re realizing that’s a good activity, going into—we’re in our 50s—so that’s a good activity to go into in the decades ahead.

Dave:It’s like pickleball.

Arlene:It is just like pickleball. But it is humility—you’re right—because you feel stupid for a long time.

Sometimes, when you do that fun activity, it’s fun for one person, like skiing fun for my husband. For me, so not fun; so embarrassing. I fall on the ground; and I’m like, “Help me up.” And he’s like, “You have to learn how to get up yourself.” It was miserable; miserable. So sometimes, you’ll try something; and it won’t work. And sometimes, you’ll try something, and it does work.

Ann:You guys started something, and neither one of you were that great at it.

Arlene:Exactly; that was good.

Ann:I’m looking at kickboxing, kayaking. There’s so many things: you have an entire page of just ideas.

Dave:—alphabetical order.

Ann:Yes! Honey, we should go through these and pick some new ones: roller skating, and rollerblading, rowing. This would be fun; because Dave plays golf. For me to play golf with him, I feel like I’m so bad: “I’m just going to frustrate you.” And so I think it’s kind of fun to pick something that—

Dave:It doesn’t frustrate me; it’s fun. And she got pretty good pretty fast.

Ann:I’m frustrated, because I’m not very good.

Dave:She’s frustrated; she wants to be—

Arlene:Isn’t that interesting? So then, if you know he’s not frustrated, then you’d be like, “Okay, then I can be not as great; and it’s fine. He likes it.”

Dave:Now, she’s my pickleball partner. She better be pretty good. And she is; she’s really good. In fact: “Listeners, you want to take us on?”

Arlene:Yes!

Ann:No, no.

Dave:Let’s do it.

Ann:No, let’s not do it.

Dave:Let’s have a FamilyLife pickleball marriage—

Arlene:—tournament.

Dave:—retreat.

Arlene:Wouldn’t that would be amazing?

Dave:Work on our marriages at night; play pickleball during the day. I just came up with the idea.

Arlene:That would actually work.

Dave:I know.

Arlene:And if you did a tournament and people would win, people would go crazy for that.

Ann:They totally would.

Dave:Forget the Love Like You Mean It cruise; let’s do the pickleball cruise stuff. No, you need to come on the Love Like You Mean It cruise; go to FamilyLife.com and sign up.

But hey, let me ask you one last question: “Do you and James pray together?”

Arlene:We do pray together.

Dave:I know you eat together. What does prayer look like?

Arlene:Thank you for asking that. We do pray together at night before we go to bed. I will say it’s not like this huge time. Maybe, this comforts you: that we are praying, and it’s like a few lines before bed. That’s true; that honestly is it.

Ann:Super simple.

Dave:One of the reasons I ask you that is we—I think, sometimes, as couples—we make it complicated to pray together, and it’s just simple. We’re going to offer our—I was going to say “listeners,” but we have people watching—a way to pray with your spouse. We’re going to put five prayers for you on a website that you can go to. And that way, you have a sample prayer. You don’t have to do that, but you could: FamilyLife.com/MarriagePrayers; FamilyLife.com/MarriagePrayers. It might be a way to sort of jumpstart praying with your spouse, something we do as well. Sometimes, Ann will just pray; sometimes, I just pray. Sometimes, we pray together—sometimes, it’s epic on our knees—sometimes, we’re half asleep; and we’re falling asleep. But that bonding, daily, is literally life-changing.

Ann:One of the things that I’ve loved, too, about your book, Arlene, is just at the end of every chapter—I like that the chapters are short—

Arlene:Yes, we want to make easy.

Ann—people are going to love that. You have a prayer—

Dave:And the title of each chapter is—

Ann:—funny.

Dave:“Rent a Truck”—“What?!”—“Rent a Truck.”

Ann:You have: “Life Lessons Learned.” And then, you have one: “If You Like It, I’ll Try It,” “Make It Easier,” “Seek to Serve Your Spouse, Not the Other Way Around”; so little practical things.

And then, questions to ask your spouse: “What can I do this week to make your life easier?” And then, you have the prayer. I really like the practicality of it. It’s something that people could go through, as a couple; that would be super. You could do that, as a devotional, one chapter a night even. And then, ask a question; and say the prayer. It’d be a great little pick me up.

Arlene:It’s a good way to break the ice.

Ann:It is.

Arlene:Because it’s kind of like, “Oh, look; if they’re talking about it, we can talk about it too.” It makes it not strange to talk about these things.

Ann:I think this is so good.

Dave:Next time you come back—and because we’re not in Little Rock anymore, it won’t be any snow—you got to bring James.

Arlene:Yes, I would love!

Ann:Bring James.

Arlene:I would love it.

Dave:Maybe, you can camp out there in the back.

Arlene:Exactly; in the dirt.

Dave:Again, the name of Arlene’s book is Making Marriage Easier. You can get it in our show notes; there’ll be a link there for you to go buy it. And I’m telling you: buy it, and buy several; this will help you and others.

Ann:Yeah, thanks Arlene; this was so good.

Arlene:It was so much fun to be here.

Ann:Hey, thanks for watching. If you like this episode,—

Dave:You better like it.

Ann:—just hit that “Like” button.

Dave:And we’d like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the “Subscribe”—I can’t say the word, “subscribe”—hit the “Subscribe” button. I don’t think I can say this word!

Ann:I can subscribe.

Dave:Look at that! You say it so easily. “Subscribe”; there he goes!

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