Every Time I Pray, I Realize I’m the Problem | Bruce + Maria Goff, Arlene Pellicane

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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Give Your Marriage a Diagnostic Check-up

Guests: Arlene Pellicane and Bruce and Maria Goff

Release Date: August 19, 2025

Ann (00:00):

When we’re not doing well, I do not want to pray; because God confronts our sin and brokenness.

Bruce (00:06):

It’s like instant: “God, oh, okay; I see where I’m wrong.”

Ann: “It’s me again!”

Bruce: “I’m certain it’s a 100 percent her fault”; and then, “Lord, oh.”

Dave (00:25):

Okay; so today, we’re going to do a Wilson Original; but because we’ve run out of original material, we brought some people in to help us.

Ann (00:34):

First of all, we have Arlene Pellicane with us, who has volunteered to come in.

Arlene: “I want to be part of the Wilson Original.”

Dave (00:42):

You’re sitting in the middle between two couples. It’s like you’re a counselor.

Ann (00:46):

She’s a therapist.

Arlene (00:47):

“The therapist is in”; not really.

Ann (00:48):

Arlene, tell us—you’ve written several books—tell us about those.

Arlene (00:55):

I write about marriage and parenting: Screen Kids, if you’re having trouble with technology; Parents Rising, if you’re having trouble because your kids are bossing you around; and Making Marriage Easier if you want to make it easier. Those would be the three I would point people to.

Ann (01:10):

She’s really good to be able to be sitting in this with us.

Dave (01:13):

I’m looking over to Bruce and Maria Goff, who are with us. They hit each other: “We need all those books.”

Bruce: I was thinking, “Check, check, and check; yes.”

Ann (01:22):

Okay; give us a little hint: let our listeners and viewers hear about your family, the stage of life you’re in.

Bruce (01:29):

We’ve both nodded at each other. We’ve got four girls. We’ve been married 12 years. We’ve got four girls: nine, six, three, and zero. They are precious, and we love them very much.

Dave (01:40):

It sounds like you’re convincing yourself. Your job is inside the studio, usually on the other side of that glass.

Bruce (01:47):

Yeah; I had to show Jim, my boss, how to do my job right before I came in here. Took all of three-and-a-half seconds: “Press this button and this button.

Dave: I don’t think so; you make it sound—

Bruce: “And then, don’t press another button until we’re done.”

Ann (01:58):

But some of our listeners have heard you guys before, because you are honest; you are frank. And when you were in here before—and we’ve recorded you, Maria—what were we talking about?

Maria (02:08):

Keeping score: “Happy couples keep score.”

Dave (02:11):

Oh, yeah.

Bruce: But they keep score, positively, of the other person.

Dave: That’s no fun.

Bruce: I know; I’m so good at the other one!

Ann (02:20):

I just love that you guys are in it—in terms of being parents of [the stage] your kids are in—I think you’re in the hardest phase of marriage.

Dave (02:30):

I’m just glad we’re not in it anymore; that’s all I got to say.

Ann: Arlene, how old are your kids?

Arlene: They’re 15, 18, 20. We do have kind of a nice bridge here going on.

Dave: Yes. Do you think that they’re in the hardest phase of marriage?

Arlene: You are in the busiest; because you are still thinking: “Do we have the diaper bag?” “Do we have the sippy cup?” “This person needs their food cut”; it is intense. You are totally in the intensity.

Dave (02:52):

“Do I still like my husband?” “Do I still like my wife?”

Ann (02:54):

I think you’re in the biggest comparison; in terms of: “Whose life is harder?” and “Whose life is easier?”

Dave: Do you guys feel it?

Bruce (02:59):

Oh, yeah; it’s not really a contest. But it’s funny you talking about remembering the bag of the diapers and stuff. If we forget a paci, my brain automatically: “It’s her fault,” as if I couldn’t have also remembered to bring a paci; but “You forgot a paci?!”

Dave (03:16):

Is that what happens?

Maria (03:18):

Yes.

Dave (03:19):

Really? Your brain doesn’t go that way?

Maria (03:21):

No; I do blame him for everything you’re saying.

Dave (03:25):

I thought you were going to say “some things.”

Maria (03:26):

No, I don’t expect him to remember the baby stuff. I do mentally feel like I register that: “I’m in charge of collecting the baby things, going out the door.”

Ann (03:35):

But Maria, you’re also homeschooling.

Maria (03:37):

Yes, I am. [Sigh]

Ann (03:38):

Did you hear the sigh?—“Yes, I am.”

Arlene: —followed by the giggling.

Ann: So what are we talking about with these guys?

Dave (03:43):

Well, I want to ask you guys another question, now, we’re here: “Do you guys play the “Whose Life Is Harder” game?

Maria (03:50):

We do.

Bruce (03:50):

Yes, we do; actually, yes.

Maria: We do.

Dave (03:53):

You’re in that stage; I know we did.

Ann (03:54):

It’s obvious whose life is harder.

Maria: But I think—yeah, when he said that a while ago—I was thinking, “You are saying that it is me, right?!”

Bruce (04:03):

In some ways, having a newborn—

Maria (04:06):

When you say, “It’s no contest.”

Bruce (04:06):

—makes our marriage better because there’s no contest. I’m like, “You’re doing more”; you know what I mean? It puts us in that good keeping-track-of-score thing. We’re very healthy at this point. It’s when they get older, then I’m like, “I feel like I’m doing more.”

Maria (04:18):

Well, honestly, I don’t necessarily feel like maybe I am doing more—I don’t think of it in terms of I’m doing more—I think of it in terms of: “No, I am not doing more; but I have more of the mental load.”

Ann: Oh, interesting.

Maria: There’s stuff that I carry around in my head that he doesn’t ever have to think about.

Ann: Like what?

Maria: I’m planning for meals; I’m planning lessons; I’m keeping track of schedules; I’m keeping track of medications and dosages—all of those things that he has no idea—if I’m leaving the house, he’s like, “How much does this person get of this?—and whatever—and “If this happens…”

Bruce (04:53):

You call your kids “this person”?

Maria (04:54):

If somebody gets sick, he’s like, “What do I give them?”

Bruce (04:57):

Yeah, but I make my own breakfast; okay?

Maria: That’s true; it’s true.

Bruce: It’s Nick Bargatze: “I do my own laundry.”

Ann (05:04):

But do you have your own list of things in your head, Bruce?—”Can we make it financially?” “What’s going on with my job?”

Bruce (05:11):

Yes; “Who’s been keeping up with the fertilizer in the yard?” You asked me the other day, “Have we been keeping up?” “Yes, we have!”

Maria (05:17):

This is true.

Ann: Arlene, does that change, do you think, as your kids get older of keeping track?

Arlene (05:21):

I don’t think so. It just continues in that new season—whatever season you’re at—you’re kind of that way. But it made me think of Pam and Bill Farrel—about the waffles and spaghetti—because the man is just thinking more simply. The male brain is more like: “I need to go to work,” “I need to go pick that up.” The woman has—

Dave: Hey, you didn’t have to make it sound dumb [speaking slowly]: “I just have to…”

Bruce: “Me have to go…”

Arlen: We better edit that out. I better/that’s my male impression!

But the woman’s got a whole big plate of spaghetti on her head; she’s thinking about all these different things all the time. I kind of feel like we, women, just think about things a lot more.

Ann: And then, as they get older, now you’re thinking relational stuff with your kids: “How are they feeling about their teacher?” and “That girl who was mean to them.” Now, it becomes this whole relational bundle.

Arlene (06:12):

Then the husband often is like, “Who’s that again?” And then, it’s like, “Well that’s that friend from the biology class.” “I have no idea who this person is.”

Ann (06:19):

One of our sons said to Dave, “Know the people in the game, Dad.

Dave (06:23):

You don’t have to bring that up.

Ann (06:24):

“Know our friends’ names.”

Dave (06:27):

I still don’t know their names, and they were in our house all the time.

Do you feel like—because I, Bruce, I wasn’t like you—I always thought my job was harder—even though, obviously, hers was harder—especially, with three boys under five and a baby in the house. I’m coming in like, “Oh, I had such a hard day. I was in a meeting, and I had to go to lunch with this guy.” She’s like, “You went to lunch with somebody?”

Bruce: “Quit grumbling.”

Dave: I’m like, “No, no; I didn’t go out today.”

Ann (06:53):

“You didn’t have to cut up anybody’s food? What was that like?”

Dave (06:56):

But I actually had this perception that: “What I’m carrying is a lot heavier than yours. You have babies.” I didn’t realize it was a lot harder for her, and she wasn’t homeschooling! Oh, my goodness!

Bruce (07:07):

I had to text her the other day; I was like, “Oh, I hate doing this, but can I borrow the car? We’re having a meeting at Starbucks.” I go home; take the car: “See ya!”

Maria (07:20):

Actually, you ended up riding with Bobby.

Bruce (07:22):

Oh, that’s right. Yeah, never mind.

Maria (07:24):

He worked it out.

Bruce (07:24):

Bobby came through again; that’s true.

Dave (07:26):

Did you have some story—I don’t even know what it was about—you moving a tree?

Bruce (07:29):

Oh, yeah.

Maria: I asked him to go get a tomato plant from my friend, who was moving away. He and Jim come back with this tree! I’m like, “What the heck is this?” He’s like—

Dave: You just wanted a little plant?

Maria: “You said the big plant; you said the big huge one.” I’m like, “This is not…Do you know what a tomato plant…”

Bruce (07:47):

The one we took didn’t even belong to the people.

Arlene: What?!

[Unintelligible cross talking]

Ann (07:50):

So wait; wait, Maria.

Bruce: She said like three or four times—

Ann: —“Bring home that tomato plant,”— and they come home with a potted tree?

Bruce (07:56):

And three or four times, I’m like, “That’s not/you think that’s going to fit our car?!” She’s like, “I don’t know: if you push the seat back.” I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to have to get Jim and his truck for that.” I’m pointing at the tomato plant.

Bruce: There was no pointing. We were inside; and I said, “The big one?” And you said, “Yeah.”

Maria (08:12):

That was right next to us; the big huge one, yes.

Bruce (08:14):

I don’t remember any pointing going on.

Maria (08:17):

“Over there, the big huge one.”

Bruce: It was just: “…the big one.”

Maria: —”the one with the tomatoes on it.”

Bruce (08:19):

I think Jim made a great point at the time.

Arlene: It literally had tomatoes on it?

Bruce: Jim said, “Who’s dumber: me for not knowing what a tomato plant looks like? Or you for thinking I know what a tomato plant looks like?”

Dave (08:30):

I can’t believe two guys did this.

Ann (08:31):

So wait, wait, wait. Did it have tomatoes on it?

Maria (08:34):

Yes!

Dave: Well, there you go.

Ann: Bruce! Bruce!

Bruce: I don’t know how tomatoes grow. I assume: “It’s just out of season right now.” I don’t know!

Dave: I still don’t know. I don’t know what you’re saying.

Maria: He stole the neighbor’s tree.

Arlene: Oh, my.

Maria: Fortunately,—

Dave: Did you take it back?

Bruce: I brought it back within five minutes.

Maria:Fortunately, they had already moved away.

Bruce (08:51):

Yes, so it was all good.

Maria (08:51):

So there’s nobody in the house.

Bruce (08:53):

Threw out our backs.

Maria (08:53):

Nobody actually knew that they stole it. Unless they check their Ring camera or something.

Ann (08:57):

Well, here’s where we want to go today—not that all that wasn’t great—but we have some questions to diagnose the health—

Dave (09:06):

These are “Ten Diagnostic Questions [for Your Marriage]”—for you and your spouse from Kevin DeYoung. He wrote a blog about it. We’re going to go through some of his diagnostics and just hear what you guys have to say. Although—

Bruce (09:17):

You could have used these on your tenth anniversary.

Dave (09:20):

We could have.

Dave (09:21):

We could have, Bruce.

Dave: Thanks for bringing that up—

Arlene (09:23):

He’s like, “You brought up the tomato plant; I’m going here!”

Dave (09:26):

—the day my wife said, “Our marriage is over.”

Bruce (09:28):

Because you thought you were 9.9, and she thought you were a 0.3?

Ann (09:33):

—0.5; 0.5.

Dave (09:34):

At the beginning of this blog—see how I’m transitioning?—he talks about laughter, which isn’t even one of the ten; but he says: “The couple that laughs together lasts together.”

Arlene: I like that.

Dave: Agree, disagree?

Maria (09:47):

Agree.

Arlene: Hardy agreement.

Maria: The times that we have really cracked up together—whatever—we’re like, “We need to do this more.”

Ann (09:55):

Arlene, you write about that in your latest book.

Arlene (09:56):

You have to have fun together. One of those decisions to make marriage easier is: “Take fun seriously.”

Bruce (10:03):

Did you guys do that when you had kids—when they were our’s ages?—like young, under ten.

Ann (10:08):

We went on dates.

Bruce (10:08):

Yeah, prioritize fun.

Dave (10:10):

We went on dates; and then, we did fun stuff with the kids.

Ann (10:13):

Yeah.

Bruce: Oh, yeah.

Dave (10:14):

We rented an RV.

Bruce: You guys were like the funnest—

Dave: We did an RV-trip. I didn’t want to do it, because it’s going to cost money; and they are some of the greatest memories we’ve ever had.

Ann (10:22):

Making memories is really big for us. It was when our kids were little.

Dave: We had woods behind our house. We put a tent in the middle of the woods, and we slept out there on Friday nights sometimes. My oldest son, who’s now an IT with Sharper Image, literally got an extension cord—300 or 400; 500 of them—brought a TV out into the woods. We’re like, “We’re not watching TV.”

Ann: We watched a war movie.

Dave: “Let’s watch war movies out here and pretend we’re cowboys in there.”

Ann (10:45):

Then, in the middle of the night—we’re in the middle of these woods—in Michigan, there’s so many deer. You can hear this snorting sound.

Dave (10:53):

Did you know deer do that?

Ann (10:55):

You guys,—

Dave (10:55):

I’m scared to death.

Bruce: I would have thought it was a wild boar.

Arlene: (10:58):

After the war movie, and you’re in the tent?

Ann: Yes, Arlene! We’re all in the tent.

Dave: I didn’t even want to look out. I was like, “I don’t even want to see what’s out there.”

Ann: All I can envision is this buck, with his big antlers. It’s in the fall, so he’s got his antlers.

Dave: You think they’re going to rush the tent: “What’s this tent doing in my woods?” And they’re going to rush us.

Ann (11:15):

So what do you do?—you laugh. You either laugh or you cry, and we laughed. It’s awful! So I think that’s true: laughter.

Dave (11:23):

Let’s talk about ten questions to diagnose the health of your marriage [“Ten Diagnostic Questions for Your Marriage”].

Bruce: Was that one of them?

Ann (11:27):

No.

Bruce (11:27):

No, we haven’t even got to that.

Ann: We still haven’t gotten one.

Dave: That was just part of it.

Arlene: Going slow.

Dave: That’s the 11th one, I guess.

The first one Kevin mentions is: “Do you pray together? Healthy marriages pray together.” Yes? What do you guys think?

Maria (11:42):

Not enough.

Bruce (11:43):

Not enough, no.

Arlene (11:45):

If it makes you feel any better, I would answer that way too: “Not enough.”

Ann: Why—

Bruce (11:48):

We’ll go ahead and answer that way then.

Arlene: I will.

Dave (11:52):

We do it about four times a day. So you guys are just losers.

Ann: No, we don’t!

Dave: No, we do not.

Ann (11:56):

Here’s my question: “Why do you think comples don’t pray together?”

Dave: Comples?

Ann: Why do you think couples—

Arlene: I like how he pointed that out.

Dave (12:08):

That’s laughter.

Bruce: He mocks her.

Dave: I created laughter.

Ann: Why do you think—

Dave: We got to keep that in; don’t edit that out.

Bruce: It’s real.

Ann (12:11):

Why do you think couples don’t pray together?

Maria (12:14):

Busyness.

Ann: Tired.

Bruce (12:16):

We’re not too busy to watch a new series.

Ann (12:20):

See!

[Unintelligible cross talking]

Maria: It doesn’t take effort; it takes effort to pray.

Ann: But why does prayer feel like effort? It’s just talking.

Maria: I don’t know; it just does.

Bruce (12:29):

It’s intimate.

Ann (12:30):

I think that’s it: it’s intimate.

Dave (12:33):

We’re having a day here. What do you mean: intimate?

Bruce (12:35):

It’s like I got to expose myself.

Maria (12:39):

It feels like a chore.

Bruce (12:39):

She exposes herself. Yeah, praying to God—that’s—

Maria (12:43):

I don’t mind the intimacy. To me,—

Bruce (12:44):

—opening your soul.

Maria (12:45):

—that’s something that has to be done. So if it has to be done, then it feels like a chore to me. I don’t know.

Ann: Maybe, that’s how you feel. Do you feel like that?

Dave (12:54):

I can’t say that on air.

Maria (12:55):

There’s so much in my life that has to be done—and it’s like another thing that has to be done—and I’m like, “I don’t want to do it. I want to do what I want to do for once today.”

Ann (13:04):

Oh, there’s something.

Arlene: So then, it’s maybe like: “How do you make it an on-the-way kind of thing?” Not like a thing you have to do: but “On the way from point A to point B, I’m talking to God.”

Maria (13:13):

Obviously, there’s a heart issue of: “I need to reorient so that it is something that I want, something that I look forward to.”

Ann (13:20):

So do you pray during the day—just throughout the day—like: “Lord, this is terrible.”

Maria: I do.

Ann: So you’ll do it alone.

Maria: —on my own, yes.

Dave (13:28):

Let me ask the ladies this—I’ve got three of them here—this is me and Bruce asking; Bruce doesn’t know what I’m going to ask. “Do you women feel like, when your husband prays or even leads—like, ‘Hey, let’s pray,’—is it romantic? Is there something about it that’s like romantically-stimulating toward your man?”

Arlene (13:46):

I will say, “Yes”; because it’s like, “Oh, this is the man I fell in love with.” One thing I really liked about James when we were dating, he was very spiritually passionate: he’d pray and he’d worship. I just felt like, “Well, you really love God”; so I really liked that.

I think—to go back to your earlier question of: “Sometimes, why don’t we pray?”—sometimes it’s like, as women, we’re waiting maybe for the man to lead to do the prayer. You don’t want to feel like, “I’m the wife; and I’m so spiritual, and I’m so godly,”—because women tend to be more: we read; we journal; we do these spiritual activities—but praying, whether you’re—it doesn’t matter how you pray; you could be praying in the car—it’s just a spiritual as praying somewhere else.

We’re waiting for the man to lead; and then, the man is thinking, “Oh, I’m not going to do it good enough, the way the wife wants me to do it. I don’t have time to read the study and do all this stuff, so I’m just not going to do it.” I think there’s a little bit of that too.

Ann (14:44):

Maria, what was going on in your head? Because your face revealed something different.

Maria (14:49):

No, I have to have an honest moment here of: “That’s not—there are other spiritual things that he does that are attractive and romantic, like you were talking about, to me—but a lot of times, when he decides he wants to do those things, it’s when we’re in bed at night, and I’m like so tired. It’s not what I want to do right then.

Ann: Are you okay with him—

Arlene: Timing is important.

Ann: —just praying over you?

Marai: Yeah, I would be; but usually, he wants to pray together.

Bruce (15:18):

A lot of times, I just pray—I’ll say, “Let’s pray,”—but it’s really just me praying.

Maria (15:22):

That’s true; that’s true.

Bruce (15:23):

I think what happened: we used to pray more before we had kids. We pray, as a family, way more than we pray as a couple.

Arlene (15:29):

Oh, that’s good.

Bruce (15:30):

I think in my head—I’m like, “We prayed at the dinner table. She was there, so we prayed together,”—but it’s not the same.

Ann (15:37):

Interesting.

Dave (15:39):

You know the stats on couples that pray? It’s staggering. Couples that pray together daily—well, no; it didn’t say “daily.”

Ann: (15:47):

—”on a regular basis.”

Dave (15:47):

—”regular: one, two or three times, probably, a week,”—divorce rate is 1 in 1,152.

Arlene: Wow; we need to start praying.

Bruce (15:53):

That’s crazy.

Dave (15:54):

Fifty percent outside of the church.

Ann: That’s motivating.

Dave: Twenty-three percent divorce rate in the church, one in 1,152. It’s just like: “There must be something there.” Well, there’s a spiritual thing going on if you’re going to be that intimate to say: “We’re going to do this three or four times; maybe, seven times [per week]”—whatever—”but regularly, this is part of our thing.” It’s a big deal.

Ann (16:13):

And our prayers are quick; they’re short at night.

Bruce (16:15):

I was going to say, “What does it look like for Dave and Ann Wilson?” Give us a little insight.

Ann (16:19):

Don’t hold us to any pedestal. It used to look like this: we’d be getting ready for getting in bed. I can tell Dave’s getting tired; and so I’d be thinking, “Oh, he’s going to pray. He’s the pastor, after all, of the church of thousands of people.”

Dave (16:34):

I prayed for all the people that day.

Ann (16:36):

And then, he falls asleep. I’m like, “Oh, well, he could pray for them; but he can’t pray for us or me.” And then, I have this resentment going on within me. I realized: “So then, if nobody prays, who wins?—Satan.” Basically, that’s how I see it; I’m more black and white.

We talked about that. Dave, you still fall asleep sometimes; but “Who cares who prays or who falls asleep?”

Dave: “Let’s just pray.”

Ann: Yeah; “Let’s just pray.” And it’s quick; it’d be like, “Lord, we love you. Thanks for today. Lord, we’re really/this is keeping me up: here’s what’s going on…” It’s not even three minutes.

Dave (17:13):

No, it’s very short. And sometimes, we’ve had seasons—where we got on our knees—and just say, “Hey, let’s do this for a month.” That’s pretty cool. And sometimes, those were 30 seconds; sometimes, they were two minutes.

Ann (17:26):

And when I come in, and he’s already on his knees, to me, that is so romantic.

Dave (17:31):

She has never not jumped on her knees beside me; like, “Boom, Baby!”

Arlene (17:35):

“Are we doing this?”

Ann: “Are we praying together?” I feel like we’re going to battle! “We’re going to battle; let’s get in there together.”

Dave (17:41):

I remember one time—I think I’ve maybe shared it—we have a studio at home. It was during COVID, and I had the door shut. It’s upstairs; it used to be a bedroom. I grabbed my acoustic; and I’m like [singing], “Bless the Lord, o my soul” Bam! The door opens: “Are we worshipping?! Yeah; let’s go.” I’m like, “I sort of wanted a moment by myself.” She’s like all over it: “I guess we are!”

Ann (18:07):

You’ve never done it again; it makes me so sad!

Dave: I do; I do it real quiet now.

Ann: That’s terrible!

Dave: But there’s something I think in that, at least for us, I think—you tell me if women feel this way—but there’s something, when you’re spiritually moving together, that there’s something happening good in your marriage, right? That’s got to be true.

Arlene (18:29):

It’s like jelling you together.

Dave (18:30):

Yeah.

Ann: You feel intimate.

Arlene (18:31):

You feel like it’s working: “We’re closer.”

Dave (18:33):

It could be the Word/it could be reading the Bible; it could be praying; you could be singing—anything that you’re going vertical—I think connects a couple.

Ann (18:41):

But I will say, Dave, when we’re not doing well, I do not want to pray. I don’t want to pray with you; I don’t even want to pray, because God—the truth of Who He is—confronts your soul. It makes you already know we need to resolve something.

How does it look for you guys, Arlene, you and James?

Arlene (18:58):

It can be that separate prayer first that you’re just praying: “God, help me to forgive. God, help me to be nice. God, help me to see it how he’s seeing it.” And then, coming back together. I do have those quick bathroom prayers, that you go quick in the bathroom: “Lord, help me not be mad. Show me: ‘Why am I mad?’ and ‘Really, why are you unhappy?’”—”O my soul” kind of thing. Ask yourself: “What is it about that that set me off? What is it that he needs to know that he’s not understanding?” A lot of times, it’s misunderstanding. It’s like: “What do I need to communicate more clearly?” It is—you see it in the Gospels, right?—”Go make it right with the person; and then, come back to Me and offer your offering.”

(19:38)

So I do see it: keeping the marriage in sync is part of your worship; like, “Lord, I want to make it right with this person so I can now make it right with You.” Of course, as much as it depends on you, you do it. The other person might not be working with you, but you’re only doing your part.

It’s true, though—a soft heart towards your spouse helps you then have a soft heart towards God—but when you’re hardhearted towards your spouse, you’re hardhearted towards God, because you don’t want to talk to Him about what’s happening. There is a correlation there.

Ann (20:10):

Dave and I were in this big fight. I was going on a trip; and he was supposed to fix—

Dave: I’m thinking, “Which one?”

Bruce: I’m thinking, “What did Dave do?”

Ann (20:17):

He was supposed to fix the headlight on this car. I was going to drive five hours.

Dave: Oh, no; do not share that.

Ann: I had given him a month or two; I’m like, “Hey, we’ve got to get that headlight—

Bruce (20:27):

That little amount of time, huh?

Ann (20:29):

—a month or two.

Dave (20:31):

And every time: “Yeah, I’ll get to it; I’ll get to it.”

Ann (20:33):

I know that I can’t go have it fixed—it would cost too much money—and he would want to fix it himself. The day of this event, where I’m leaving—the kids are little—I come home. I have to take the car he’s in. He gets out; I throw my bags in the car. I get in the driver’s seat; kiss him. I’m like, “Hey, you fixed the headlight; right?” He goes, “Oh, I totally forgot.” I just looked at him like, “You are unbelievable.”

Dave (21:00):

She was ticked.

Ann (21:01):

I was so mad. I leave, and I can see him in my mirror. I can see him saying—and the boys are little, like car-seat little—

Dave (21:10):

I’m, literally, throwing them in the car.

Ann (21:11):

He’s throwing them in this minivan.

Dave (21:12):

“Follow me to K-Mart.”

Ann (21:14):

He’s not even putting them in a car seat; I’m like, “Look at—see—that’s who I married. Look at him.” I’m driving, and I am so mad. And when I vent—I can vent to God about it—”Can you believe that, Lord? Look at him. Look, he doesn’t even care. I’ve given him two months; I do everything.”

And then, I hear this little voice: “What are you going to be speaking on?”—this is in my head—”What are you going to be speaking on this weekend to these women?—about how your husband doesn’t meet all your needs, and Jesus can meet your needs.” You know what I do? I turn on the radio really loud; because I’m like, “I don’t want to hear what God says right now.”

Arlene: “I’m not ready; I’m not ready to hear that.”

Ann: “Lord, I was venting to You; I was venting to You, but I don’t want to hear what You have to say.”

Bruce (21:54):

But then, it was on K-LOVE; and you’re like, “Ahh!”

Ann (21:57):

But anyway, I think, when my heart gets hard, the last thing I want to do is pray;—

Bruce (22:02):

Oh, yeah.

Ann (22:03):

—because God confronts our sin and brokenness.

Bruce (22:06):

It’s like instant: “God, oh, okay; I see where I’m wrong.”

Ann: “Oh, it’s me again!”

Bruce: I’m going into prayer, certain it’s 100 percent her fault. And then, “Lord, oh—

Ann (22:22):

Yes!

Dave (22:23):

Or if you have a sin that you need to confess—I know you guys never have any—but—

Bruce (22:28):

I can imagine that that’s hard.

Dave (22:30):

—there could be. That prevents you; it’s like a blockage. You’re right—you said earlier, Bruce—“It’s intimate.” It’s like it’s hard to fake it.

Ann (22:39):

Okay, let’s go into the next one: “Do you still notice each other? Physical attraction matters; do you still see and appreciate your spouse’s appearance?”

Dave (22:50):

When I read that yesterday, I thought, “I believe you’re stunning.”

Ann (22:54):

Oh, my!

Dave (22:56):

See, here we go; that’s what she does.

Arlene (22:58):

She is! She is stunning.

Dave (22:58):

I believed that from the day I dated her; I thought, “She’s the hottest thing I ever saw.” I feel the same way now. And I don’t say it a lot. I say it now; she’s like, “Please don’t even say it.” Look at that reaction. Even when I say it—”I think you’re beautiful,”—she said, “No, I’m not. I got this; I got this; I got this. I need to…” I’m like, “I just think you’re beautiful! I’m not just making it up.”

Ann: That’s really sweet.

Dave: Even the other night, laying in this tent—doing this camping marriage thing—I look over, and I’m like, “This is amazing that she’ll even do this. How many wives would say, ‘I’m not doing this; I’m getting a house’?” And I’m not saying good or bad; I’m just like, “My wife is willing to do it, and you look great!” I believe that. So I’m just thinking, “Do we say that? Do we—

Ann (23:41):

Good for you who are watching on YouTube.

Dave (23:44):

No, when I read this,—

Bruce: That’s the screenshot there, a thumbnail.

Ann (23:47):

Oh, yeah; don’t use that please.

Dave (23:48):

Put a picture of us in high school, whatever.

“Do you still notice each other?” I see it, but I don’t say it enough.

Ann: What do you guys think about that?

Maria (23:55):

I was going to say, “I notice him; but I feel like, a lot of times, he doesn’t notice me.”

Bruce (24:00):

I don’t say it nearly enough. I notice—sometimes, I’ll say it to the girls—and she’ll be like, “Where’s my love?”

Ann (24:09):

Does that matter to you, Maria?

Maria: Yes.

Ann: It does.

Maria: It does.

Ann: And when he doesn’t, what do you feel? What goes through your mind?

Maria (24:16):

You have all the thoughts of like: “Well, I must not be attractive anymore.” I don’t know.

Bruce (24:21):

Yeah, it’s a thing right now in our marriage. I think if we want to get real talk of—at least, for me, an insecurity is—you know that I like your hair down. It’s an insecurity—but I was like, “If she loved me, she’d wear it down more often,”—so I’m always asking you, “Can you wear your hair down?”

Maria (24:38):

“Pull your hair [down],” “You pull your hair [down].” It drives me insane.

Bruce (24:39):

“Pull your hair [down].” It drives her nuts.

Dave: —because?

Maria (24:42):

I’m wiping butts; I am washing dishes; I’m cleaning pee off the floor—I am doing all these things—I don’t have time to pull my hair down, and it’s getting in my way. But then, it’s like I feel like, “Oh; well, he doesn’t think I’m pretty if I don’t pull my hair down.”

Arlene (25:00):

Oh, this is so good; because this is exactly how it is. Because for you—for Maria, it’s like—”I need to put my hair up to do the thing.” And then, for Bruce it’s like, “Oh, but I just love it so much when your hair is down.”

Maria (25:15):

But it’s more than that; I think it’s more than that; because he makes it a love issue—he says, “If you love me, you would do this,”—he’s said that before.

Bruce (25:23):

Well, and it’s not right.

Maria: “It feels like such a small thing.”

Bruce: It’s how I feel. It’s wrong, but it’s how I feel.

Maria: “It feels like such a small thing that you could do that makes me feel loved.” So then, it makes me feel like—on top of everything else, where I feel like I’m failing—something else I’m failing, because I can’t pull my hair down or remember to pull my hair down; I’m failing you again.

Ann (25:39):

And so I would probably feel like—not to not be on your side, Bruce—“Does that mean I’m ugly when my hair’s up?!”

Maria (25:47):

Exactly: “So I’m not pretty?” That’s what I was saying: “Then, I feel like, ‘Well, I’m not pretty. He doesn’t think I’m pretty unless I pull my hair down.’”

Ann (25:52):

“If I want to be somewhat attractive to him, I need to have my hair down. And right now, I don’t care about being attractive; I just need to get my kid to go to sleep!”

Maria: Yes, yes.

Dave (26:01):

So how do you help? How do you help that couple?

Bruce: I’m not here to defend myself on this.

Ann (26:04):

I know you’re not; I know your heart.

Bruce (26:06):

You have every right to put it out.

Maria: I’m saying you brought it up.

Bruce: You have every right not to be bothered about it. So I’m not going to defend myself one bit; it’s not right.

Arlene (26:13):

We need to give kudos to Bruce for being able to say this; that’s kind of a big thing. And then, we’re going to retrain you, Bruce, to have all these pictures of Maria, with her hair up—and for you to be like, “Oh, I like it that way,”—it’s almost like a learning: “I’m going to learn, out of love, how to like your hair this way.”

And then, for you Maria, that out of love that you’ll be like: “Oh, it’s date night; hair’s down.”

Bruce (26:42):

She does always do that.

Maria (26:44):

I do things like that.

Bruce: It’s not like you never do it.

Maria: I do try to remember, before he gets home, at least, to pull the hair tie out. But I don’t always remember.

Ann (26:48):

Even makeup, when you have little kids, it’s the last thing you’re thinking about. But then, when you’re blonde, and you have no eyebrows and no eyelashes, you’re like, “You can’t even see your eyes.” It was—I think my sister wore makeup, and so I got into habit of that—of not doing it all the time—but sometimes. Is that important? It’s that same kind of thing.

Maria (27:13):

And there’ve been times where he’s like, “Well, you always put on makeup when you’re going out, when you’re going to go see other people; but how come you don’t put on makeup for me?” And so not a lot more—I need to do it more—but I will try to just put some of it on before he gets home.

Dave (27:28):

On the other side, Bruce, you need to get her out; get her out of the house!

Bruce: You’re right.

Dave: Call it “Hair out/hair down night.”

Bruce: “Hair down night.” Yeah, that’s great! That’s a great example.

Ann (27:38):

And I’ll say, too, as we get older as women—that’s why I scoffed—because I thought, “I’m just going to get more mature and more okay with my physical appearance,”—I was like that for a while. And then, you start getting older; and it gets harder and harder. So when Dave says, “Oh, you look so good,” I’m like, “No, I don’t; I look like I’m 90 years old.” I think there’s something about receiving the compliment as well, which is really healthy.

Arlene, you’re shaking your head.

Arlene (28:07):

I was thinking of the whole noticing thing, because it’s true. They just blend in—your spouse just blends in to the whole scene of whatever’s happening to your house—and you really do not notice them. I will say that, while my kids were little, I’m noticing my kids, because they’re growing; they need stuff. They’re always changing; and then, your spouse is the same. You’re like, “I already got that; I already saw that.”

(28:30):

You do have to go back. I think that’s what the once-a-year, one-day getaway does. What that does is it brings you back to notice each other again—to notice—because you go through phases, where it’s like we’re not really noticing. It is thinking it through: “I have to do this on purpose.”

Sometimes even, it used to be—of course, when you were dating, you would look at each other for a long time, and it’s not a big deal; you’re falling in love—but now, if you look at each other: “What? Why are you looking at me? Do I have something in my hair?—What?!”

Ann: Do I have something in my teeth?”

Arlene: Yeah; “Something’s wrong?”

Arlene: And so sometimes, I will just even try—James will be in the kitchen—and I will just, on purpose, glance at him a little more, just as a little exercise for myself, to be like, “Let me just actually really look at you.” It’s just a few seconds; but just this thought of like, “Oh, I want to notice you.”

(29:20):

And I’m the kind of person, too, I don’t notice things—like my husband can trim all/he had trimmed all of our palm trees; we’re in San Diego—he had spent four hours trimming all the palm trees; I don’t notice that at all. I came home, and I think I did the dishes or something. He came in, and he asked me to do something. I was like, “I’m not going to do that; I just did the dishes.” He was like, “I did the palm trees for four hours this morning.” And I was like, “Oh, I didn’t even notice that you did that. You win; I should do the chore, because you’ve done that for four hours.”

We don’t notice what the other person does. I think that idea: “Okay, I’m going to notice what you do”; that goes a long way.

Maria (30:06):

I was going to say, “I think that is more of what you would want: is for me to notice what you’re doing. You don’t really care if I notice how you look, the physical part; that doesn’t really mean much to you.”

Bruce (30:16):

We’re going to have Gary Chapman in here tomorrow, but who needs him? I’ll explain it all. It’s a love language thing, where I think you really like words of affirmation; you receive love that way. And I don’t so much, and so I don’t think to love you that way.

Dave, I love the example that you set just by being so open on this program because you’ve talked about that one time that Ann came down the stairs and you thought she just looked drop-dead gorgeous. You just thought it and didn’t say it; that happens to me. Just the other night, we were on a date on Saturday night, and thought you looked so good. I didn’t say a thing.

Maria: Nope.

Bruce: Just thought it.

Arlene (30:51):

So then, see how easy this is! All it is: it’s like, “Wow, you look really beautiful tonight, Babe.” It’s just one thing; and it’s like, “Whoa!”

Maria: It’s a new habit.

Bruce (30:58):

That is a crazy idea.

Maria (31:01):

And all I need to do is throw my trash away.

Bruce: It’s that simple.

Dave (31:05):

Now, I do think it’s really important for men, too,—

Ann (31:10):

I was going to ask: “Is it important for men?”

Dave (31:11):

—to be noticed.

Bruce: Not for me.

Maria: He doesn’t—

Ann (31:12):

Noticed in what way? I think that’s a good question.

Maria (31:15):

That’s the thing: if I notice—because he’ll be like cleaning the garage—and I don’t care; I don’t care about the garage. He cares about the garage.

Ann (31:22):

I would; I’d be like, “Look at that garage!”

Maria (31:25):

I don’t care about the garage, —but if I notice/if I say, “Thank you for cleaning the garage,” or “Thank you for…”—whatever it is that he did, he appreciates it when I notice the things that he does, not necessarily how he looks.

Bruce (31:39):

Well, I’m with Ann—she’ll [Maria will] say, “How did I get such a good-looking husband?”—I’m just like, “Whatever. I don’t why you’re—

Maria: He doesn’t like it.

Bruce: —”you’re just being funny. You, obviously, don’t mean that.” That’s part of that.

Ann (31:51):

So the question would be: “You love it when I notice what?”

Ann: Hey, before we continue our conversation, I just want to remind you that our vision at FamilyLife is: “Every home, a godly home.” We need your help to get there. When you become a FamilyLife Partner, your monthly support makes that vision actually possible.

Dave (32:13):

And listen to this: if you join the FamilyLife Partner program, you’ll get access to exclusive updates and events, and the chance to join our “Partners Only” online community. But more than that, you’ll be teaming up with us to change the future of families. The question is: “Will you stand with us?”

Ann (32:31):

You can learn more and become a Partner at FamilyLifeToday.com—just click the “Donate” button at the top—again, that’s FamilyLifeToday.com.

Okay, let’s get back to the conversation.

Dave (32:45):

I don’t care if you think I look good. I’m trying to look good—but look at me—I can’t do much! There’s not a lot of—

Ann (32:54):

See, he’s as bad as I am.

Dave (32:54):

But no, even a couple of weeks ago, I was preaching. We stream, so I didn’t know she was watching the first service—going to do four that day—and right at the end of my sermon, she texts. I was talking about how all the disciples were martyred—they weren’t all—and I didn’t have time to say it. I had a whole chart, so I started riffing. I get a text before I’m done with the sermon: “John wasn’t killed; he was boiled in oil.”

Bruce (33:19):

Oh, but survived.

Ann: He survived on the island.

Dave (33:21):

And I didn’t even remember. I just put them all in one thing, and I just ran out of time. But all that to say—and I even told the congregation—”Hey, you got to have a marriage like mine. My wife texted me just to clear it up: ‘John wasn’t killed.’”

Ann (33:35):

I thought you could correct it before you ended.

Dave (33:37):

But before I went into the next service, I also get a text that says: “This was really, really good.” Of all the people in the congregation who come up to me, their comments mean nothing. Hers means everything, good and bad. I know she’s like, “You’re good, and you just did a great job,”—that’s a 10 out of 10 to a guy.

Ann (33:56):

But it says a lot about—that I can do that—because I would come to a later service and see it live. But there’s something about Dave, like, “Hey, I really love what you see in my messages and what you think I should improve.” That says a lot about you, even.

Dave (34:12):

Yeah, but it’s the noticing. I say this at men’s retreats; I say it so women can understand this about their man: “Your man is still a little boy, who’s saying, Hey, Mom, do you see?—do you see? —do you see?’” We aren’t, but we sort of are: we’re still looking for you to say [clapping]: “You’re a good man,” “You’re a good husband.”

Bruce (34:30):

“And I want specifics.”

Ann: You do?

Bruce: If I was preaching that sermon, I’d want her to say: “That point about this,” or “…that,” “Man, that was really good.”

Dave: And she did.

Bruce: I’ll play like a radio spot for her—

Maria (34:41):

Because that demonstrates that I was really listening.

Bruce (34:42):

Yeah; I want you to, just on your own, say, “Whoa, that little thing right there; that was so cool.”

Ann (34:48):

I always say to Dave: “Oh, you’re fishing now. You want me to go on about it?” I used to feel like, “Wait, really? You need me to…” Now, I realize, “Yeah, he does want me to do that.”

Dave (34:58):

“That was good, but was it the best you ever heard in your life?” or “That’s what it was…”

Bruce (35:01):

It’s kind of getting down in the weeds. When I played the trailer for “The Road to Kaeluma”, and you said, “So is that supposed to be a trailer or a sample?”

Maria (35:10):

He got so mad at me, so mad at me. I was like, “What did I do? I don’t know what I did.”

Bruce (35:15):

But you’re right; it’s a little-boy insecurity. That’s all it is.

Dave: It is.

Maria (35:18):

I legitimately didn’t know what this piece of audio was supposed to be like.

Bruce: “It’s a trailer! And it’s a really good one!”

Maria (35:25):

I asked a question, because I didn’t automatically know.

Arlene: “Everybody at work loved it! It’s a trailer.”

Ann: Arlene, what does James want you to notice?

Arlene (35:32):

What does James want me to notice? I think similar to what Dave is saying—with the accomplishments—the things that are being done. It is funny though: my sweet James is trying to hold onto his hair, and so he does not—

Dave (35:45):

—give up. It’s a losing battle unless you want to spend a lot of money!

Arlene (35:50):

It’s like he’s working on his appearance in that sense—but he doesn’t care—I could notice things, but he doesn’t care as much. It’s more like he loves to learn.

Maria (36:01):

“You did the palm trees.”

Arlene (36:01):

He did the palm trees—he would like that; he would—because he’s the acts-of-service person. If I notice that [he] actually did the act of service—which I have completely ignored—so acknowledgement of that.

He really loves respect. So he loves—“This is the direction we’re going with the family,” or whatever it is—and I say, Wonderful,”—even if we need to talk about it; but at the end, I back [him] up; that’s huge. That’s his thing: “I respect you; I’ll back you up.” That’s what he wants me to notice.

Dave (36:30):

Believe it or not, there’s ten of these. We’ve covered two. I don’t know if we’re going to even get close to ten; but the next one is: “Do you hold hands?”

Maria (36:39):

Yes, we do.

Bruce: Of course, we do.

Dave (36:41):

Yeah, now you are.

Bruce: All the time.

Dave: You just did.

Ann: Do you really?

Bruce: Sometimes. It’s usually—unfortunately, look, I’ll just make myself look bad continually—you usually are the one who reaches over; I will sometimes.

Maria (36:54):

I’m a physical-touch person.

Bruce (36:56):

Yeah.

Ann (36:57):

But I’m glad that you still reach out.

Maria: I often bring up—when we were dating, we didn’t kiss until our wedding day—and so holding hands was a big deal. When we’d be in the car, he would reach over and grab my hand.

Bruce (37:09):

Your hands are like kissing.

Maria: “He’s touching me!”

Bruce: Yeah; one time, our elbows touched; it was crazy.

Ann (37:15):

That’s really sweet though. Is it important to you, Maria?

Maria: Yes.

Bruce (37:23):

Well, I shared this on the Married with Benefits one about physical; one of the episodes is “Physical Touch.” I shared it—anyway, it doesn’t matter—we had friends over. I had heard that day, or read that day, the chapter on physical touch—and how important it is—and just even putting your hand on her back. We had friends over, playing games. I remember just thinking, “I’ll just rub her back.” And then, at the end of the night, we’re cleaning up; friends are gone.

Dave: You would love that.

Bruce: She said, “You were so sweet tonight.” I was my normal usual—probably, not the nicest person—I was a jerk, I’m sure. But somehow, because I put my hand on her back,—

Maria (37:56):

It’s true.

Bruce (37:57):

—she’s like: You were so sweet tonight.” I’m like, “Okay!”

Arlene (37:59):

It says you learned; right?

Ann: Yes!

Bruce: I haven’t done it since.

Ann: Now, there is something really powerful about that. I feel like that too.

Dave (38:08):

I think couples, over years, stop.

Ann: Arlene, what are you going to say?

Arlene (38:10):

Yeah, I was going to say, “We—

Dave (38:12):

—”don’t do it.”

Arlene (38:13):

Yeah; “We don’t do it.”

We do it—he’ll grab my hand at church when the prayer is happening—he takes my hand, which I really like. I am not a physical-touch person, so it doesn’t bother me as much. You know what I’m saying?—it doesn’t speak as much. But if we’re going on a date, then we will maybe hold hands to the door and out the door; and that kind of thing. But on a regular basis, not as much.

It is a really simple way—it does take a reminder—here, even here in studio, we’re talking about it. So that’s when Bruce and Maria took hands—like, “We’re talking about it,”—so you take hands. So even just listening to this conversation, usually we need a cue. When you’re falling in love, you need no cue; you’re just so attracted to each other. But later, you need cues, like: “Oh, let me take your hand now,” “Let me hold hands.”

Ann (38:59):

When Dave does that, I notice every single time. He doesn’t: I feel like sometimes you’re like, “Don’t touch my feet,” or “Don’t…” I could be like, “Oh…”; and he could care less. But especially, coming from sexual abuse and never in my life being touched except for sexual kind of abuse—because my family wasn’t affectionate—so I really noticed just healthy rubbing my back, holding my hand; it does mean so much!

I would say this for our listeners: “Put it in your phone. If it doesn’t come natural, put it as a reminder in your phone:

Arlene: “‘Hold hands.’”

Ann: “‘Hold hands.’”

Maria (39:37):

It’s interesting; we are so polar opposite in that he does not want to be touched.

Ann: Yes! That’s Dave.

Maria: He does not want to be touched.

Bruce (39:43):

Especially, if it’s repetitive, just like—

Maria (39:45):

—like rubbing the back.

Bruce: “Are you almost done?”

Maria: “Please stop.”

Ann (39:46):

So for you, it wouldn’t come natural to do that—

Bruce (39:53):

No.

Ann (39:54):

—for Maria.

Bruce (39:55):

How would you feel, though, if I had a reminder? Does that bother you at all?

Maria (39:58):

No!

Ann: It wouldn’t bother me! “Good; put that reminder; I’ll put it in there for you.”

Dave: Hey, let me ask you this one—it’s not in here—but it’s in the same category: “Do you ever kiss?”

Maria (40:07):

Yeah.

Dave (40:08):

Like just kiss without sex or anything else?

Maria (40:11):

The funny thing is what’s helped us with that—I think what’s made it a thing for us is Bluey—there’s an episode of Bluey called “Smooch Kiss.”

Bruce (40:22):

The kids freak out, yes.

Maria (40:23):

—when their parents have a smooch kiss. We’ll do that now; and be like, “Smoochy kiss.”

Bruce (40:27):

And then, all our girls go: “Ahh!” “You like it; you would hate it if we didn’t.”

Ann (40:32):

That’s so cute.

Maria: They love the smoochy kiss.

Ann: You know what?—they’ll never forget that. Because for kids, that’s total security: “My mom and dad love each other.”

What about you, Arlene?

Arlene (40:39):

Years ago, I interviewed Clifford and Joyce Penner—they wrote The Gift of Sex—these sex therapists. My husband was so excited, like, “Oh my goodness, you’re talking to the sex therapists. I’m so happy.” He couldn’t believe it.

They suggested the five- to thirty-second kiss every day. They said it’s to keep the pilot light lit between you; and that it’s clear that it is not the ghost signal—that was the big joke—the woman doesn’t want to give the five to thirty-second kiss because—

Maria: Not every woman does.

Arlene: —not every woman—because then, the man thinks, “Oh, this is the ghost signal.” And the woman’s just like, “I just want to show love.” So you kind of have a little chat it about it.

Ann: “It’s the pilot light”; you’re saying.

Arlene: “The pilot light: to keep that lit.” Whenever we hear things like this, then we’re like, “Oh, good; let’s go back to the daily kiss.” But then, once somebody gets sick, and you’re like, “Oh, don’t kiss me; don’t kiss me,”—and then, you get out of the habit.

One day, when we have the little kids, James made a chart. He put a chart on the refrigerator of boxes, and we were supposed to check off with the kissing. We were supposed to check off every box if we kissed.

Dave (41:43):

That sounds so unromantic.

Arlene (41:44):

It was so funny.

Ann: I love it! I would love that.

Arlene: And it was like with our kids and stuff.

Bruce: You should get stamps.

Arlene: We should.

Bruce: Our kids stamps; you should get stamps.

Maria: We need to have our grownup stamp chart; smoochy kiss stamps.

Ann: You should!

Arlene: And one of our kids asked what it was. I wasn’t smart enough; I hadn’t thought of an answer. I was like, “Oh, that’s Daddy and my kissing chart.” It was just like, “Okay, that’s our kissing chart.”

Bruce (42:06):

And since then, you didn’t know you were dubbing it forever what it was called.

Dave (42:10):

Here’s the next one: “When did you last say, ‘I’m sorry’?”

Bruce (42:15):

All the time.

Maria: All the time.

Dave: Really?

Bruce: Yeah, I don’t think we have trouble.

Maria: No.

Ann (42:19):

Arlene, is that important; do you think?

Arlene (42:23):

Yes, to be able to own it instead of being like, “Well, it’s your fault. I wouldn’t have done that if you hadn’t done that.” Really, being quick to be like, “Oh, I’m sorry.” Sometimes, we, as women, we’re—“Oh, I’m sorry,” “I’m sorry,” “I’m sorry,”—we say it too many times. Sometimes, we don’t have to say it so much; but being willing to say, “Oh, I did that; I’m sorry.”

Dave (42:43):

Is it different than: “I’m wrong,” or “I was wrong”?

Arlene (42:47):

It’s the same vein; you’re just like, “I was wrong.”

Maria (42:49):

It can be—sometimes, we’ll be like—”I’m sorry you felt that way,”—like, “I didn’t do anything wrong,”—“But I’m sorry you felt that way. It’s a you-problem.”

Dave (42:56):

That’s not an apology.

Bruce (42:58):

I don’t remember doing that that often.

Maria; No, I’m saying I’ll do it.

Bruce: I remember hearing Tim Keller’s wife—I think her name’s Kathy—she was talking about how sometimes Tim would apologize too quickly. She’s like, “No, that’s not fair; you can’t just immediately apologize.” And that’s interesting. Have you ever felt that?—where it’s almost like: “You’re getting off the hook too easily: ‘Oh, we don’t have to deal with it anymore; I apologize.’

Ann (43:23):

I would feel like that if it hadn’t been resolved: “It’s not time for apologies; you’re just trying to get out of it,”—

Bruce (43:28):

Exactly.

Ann (43:29):

—trying to get out of the resolution of figuring it out.

Bruce (43:32):

I think I’m probably guilty of that.

Ann (43:33):

I think people—what is that called in conflict styles?

Dave (43:39):

It’s the “Win; yield; lose.”

Ann (43:40):

It’s a yielder: “I’m sorry; you’re right.”

Bruce (43:44):

“Well, no, no, no; we need to hash this out; and then we’ll apologize. But you can’t just jump there, because I haven’t gotten to really share why that was making me feel this way.”

Have you ever felt that from me, where I jumped to—

Maria: Yes, 100 percent.

Ann: Really?

Maria (43:59):

Yes.

Bruce: Are you sure?!

Dave: “One hundred percent.”

Maria: Because I am a feeler, it’s important to me, when he’s leaving to work or when we’re going to bed, I want to leave on an up-note. I don’t want to go to bed upset; because then, I can’t sleep. And obviously, sleep is not coming easily to me right now anyways with little ones. So I’ll be like: “You forgive me? Come on; you forgive me. I want peace.”

Bruce (44:22):

I’m leaving for work; she’s like, “Seriously, you’re just going to leave for work like this?”

Maria (44:28):

And that just makes it even worse. He’s just like, “Whatever; I don’t want to talk about it right now”; because it takes him time to process it and flip the switch.

Bruce (44:35):

Well, you’re the one who doesn’t want to go to sleep until we’ve resolved it. When we did that—

Maria (44:39):

You’re like, “You’re not really sorry. You just want have peace so you can go to sleep. It’s not about whether or not you—

Bruce (44:45):

Totally.

Ann (44:46):

—the resolution of the matter.

Arlene (44:48):

I know you’re going to have Dr. Chapman on. He does the 5 Languages of Apology. We included it in that Screen Kids book. I don’t know if I’ll remember all five; but it’s: “Expressing regret,” “Restitution: ‘How can I make this right?’” “Asking for forgiveness: ‘Will you forgive me?’” That’s about as good as I can do; there’s two more. But it is—

Ann (45:09):

Those are really good though, Arlene.

Arlene (45:10):

It is this idea that it’s not just, “I’m sorry”; but:

“I acknowledge what I’ve done.”

“I will not do this again in the future; I’ll do my best to not do it again in the future.”

“Will you forgive me?”

“Oh, is there something I can do to make it up to you?”—restitution.

These different phases to make it feel like, “Oh, you really are sorry.”

Bruce (45:29):

We skip that a lot. That’s probably when I’m not actually sorry; I just want to get it resolved.

Ann (45:34):

I’m the one who probably has always had the harder time apologizing to Dave. I’m quick to apologize to our kids. But to me, in my life, that revealed the pridefulness. That’s a pridefulness to not be able to say, “I’m sorry.” You’re really quick to do it, I think. And Dave—

Dave (45:54):

I make more mistakes.

Ann (45:56):

No.

Dave (45:56):

I need to say it a lot.

Ann (45:57):

I don’t think so. I remember thinking, “Why is this so hard for me to apologize?” And it’s pride. Do you guys all think apology is really important?

Arlene (46:09):

It’s how you repair relationships. If something’s broken, that does the trick.

Bruce (46:13):

But an actual apology—what you were talking about—takes work and humility. So it’s not so easy.

Ann: We should ask Dr. Chapman about those.

You named—did you hit four of them though?

Arlene: Maybe. It’s pretty good.

Ann: Yeah, I think that’s good.

Dave (46:26):

Alright; when’s the last time you said, “Thank you?” By the way, we’re halfway done—5—that’s only number 5.

Maria (46:31):

I think we do that. I don’t know when the last time was.

Ann: See, you guys should feel good about yourselves.

Bruce (46:39):

Look at us. And I do it more now that we have a newborn. Like I said, having a newborn has actually helped our marriage; because—

Maria (46:45):

We’re in a really good place.

Bruce (46:47):

—because it’s easier for me to see how much you’re doing. This is not anything on you; it’s on me. Even I can’t be blind to what you’re doing now.

Maria (46:56):

Here’s the thing though. I feel like there’s has been a change because even with three, I was still doing almost as much.

Bruce (47:03):

You were doing nothing; but now that we have a newborn,—

Maria (47:06):

Especially, when we had just moved, and I’m unpacking the house.

Bruce (47:08):

It goes right over my head.

Maria (47:11):

But I feel like now, more than ever, you have been noticing. And that for me, frees me to be like/emotionally, frees me to focus on loving you well. Because I don’t feel like I’m constantly trying to make sure that I get seen.

Bruce (47:29):

Yeah.

Arlene (47:30):

That’s sweet.

Bruce (47:31):

I think you do a really good job of saying, “Thank you.”

Maria: Oh, well, thanks.

Ann (47:34):

What about—

Arlene: See; you just did it right then.

Bruce: No, thank you!

Ann: Good job!

What about you, Arlene?

Arlene: When James took me to the airport to bring me here, so that would’ve been the last time: “Thank you for coming early,” and “Thanks for bringing me to the airport.” He is very sweet; he put in a note in the suitcase. I like it—

Ann (47:55):

For this trip, he did?

Arlene (47:56):

For this trip. And it was like: “I know you’ve been working hard with your book and promoting it. I believe in you 100 percent.” That goes a long way! That goes a long way.

Ann: So good.

Dave: It sure does.

Ann (48:09):

I’m telling you: it doesn’t take that much time to do those little things.

Arlene: Exactly!

Ann: For me, I think it’s a pride that wouldn’t do it. What I used to think was: “Well, what did he do for me?”—it doesn’t matter. It’s: “What did Jesus do for me?—that’s what matters. As a result of that, and my worship to Him, I’m going to love Dave and respect him in a way that it’ll communicate to him that I do. But man, those little things go a long way; I think that’s important.

Dave (48:37):

Well, it’s interesting—these/we’re talking about diagnostics—“Do you say, ‘I’m sorry’?” “Do you say, ‘Thank you’?” Here’s the next one we haven’t gotten to yet: “Do you surprise each other?”

Maria (48:47):

Yeah. So one thing I did is—a lot of times, Bruce will take the girls to Sam’s Club for dinner, because it’s cheap—

Ann (48:53):

Oh, it’s so cheap; I just did that with our grandkids.

Bruce: It’s unbelievable.

Maria (48:55):

Their hot dog is dairy-free, so it’s safe for Estelle. And so once a week, sometimes; maybe twice a month.

Bruce (49:03):

Also, I like their frozen yogurt; so it’s like, “Hey, I’ll do this for you, Honey.”

Maria (49:06):

He takes all the girls—

Dave: All of them?

Maria: —to Sam’s for dinner—so I can have a couple hours to myself.

One night, I packed all the girls in the car; got the house all tidy, because he can’t relax if the house is not tidy—and left the house before he got home from work—so that, when he got home from work, there was nobody there. It was just quiet and clean, and he could have some time to himself.

Bruce (49:26):

It is so weird to be home with nobody else there.

Dave (49:30):

It’s your future,—

Maria (49:30):

So he could watch a movie—

Dave: —like 50 years from now.

Ann (49:30):

—on the projector with the speakers on full volume.

Bruce (49:36):

Yes, I could crank it.

Ann: Did you do that, Bruce?

Bruce: I did, yes.

Ann (49:37):

What a sweet gift to each other.

Bruce (49:38):

Yeah, it was my love language.

Maria: I haven’t done it since.

Bruce: The fact that you did it at all is amazing.

Ann (49:45):

That’s really sweet.

Dave: That’s cool.

Bruce (49:46):

If you set the bar really low—I find if I set the bar really low—then it makes surprises that much easier, like, “Oh, you were considerate.”

Ann (49:55):

We haven’t done that kind of thing in a while: “Surprise each other.”

What about you guys?

Arlene (49:59):

I would have to kind scratch my head, and be like, “When did I surprise James?” “When did he surprise me?” We’re so planned out. I’m not a spontaneous person, so I’d have to really work on that.

Maria (50:13):

My question, though: “Was it talking about actual planned surprises, or was it talking about—

Dave: —spontaneous?

Maria: “Are you surprised by your spouse?”—how they—

Arlene (50:22):

I think you’re doing something to surprise them.

Dave: It’s a spontaneous act of kindness.

Arlene: It could be like a note; it could be like cooking.

Ann: Yours was totally like that.

Maria (50:28):

The way I took it at first was like, “Oh, yeah, I’ve been so surprised at”—how I was talking about how he sees everything that I do since the baby came—”how accommodating and kind he’s been with giving me time to myself and pushing me out the door to go do things with girlfriends, or whatever; because he sees everything that I do. That has surprised me, because it hasn’t always been like that.”

Bruce: See, that’s the low bar.

Arlene: Well, that is legit. That does answer the question.

Ann (50:56):

Speak to the husband-listener, who’s not doing that. Why? What’s compelling you? What’s helping you to do that?

Bruce (51:08):

Part of it is—Brandt Hansen talks about—“You’re the keeper of the garden. That’s what the man does in the relationship.” Just thinking, “Okay, I want her to flourish as my wife. She does so well when she’s with her friends; it’s just how she’s wired. I just want to see her flourish.”

Ann (51:27):

That’s really sweet.

Arlene (51:28):

It’s beautiful.

Dave: We were driving, not too long ago—you said, “We don’t do this,”—I’m going to stick up for us. We were driving to our hometown in Ohio, coming from a trip. We pulled into a burger place there called Wilson’s Hamburgers. Everybody used to think we started it, and it’s where Wendy’s came from. It’s that hamburger and the frosty. We were driving through their drive-thru; because we’re like: “We’re going through Findlay; we got to get a Wilson’s hamburger,—

Ann (51:51):

It’s where we both grew up.

Dave (51:52):

—”and a Dietsch ice cream.” Theirs is the best ice cream in the country. I’m in the drive-thru; I look across this downtown—little town, 40,000 people—

Ann: It’s tiny.

Dave: —and there’s this new hotel. It’s been there a while, but it’s gorgeous—really high-end, called the Hancock Hotel—I’m like, “Let’s spend the night; we don’t have to be home tonight.” Of course, we don’t have kids like you guys; we’re empty-nesters. She’s like, “What? We’re not spending the night.” “Why not? We can sleep in; get home tomorrow by noon.” We’re like an hour and a half from home.

Ann (52:21):

We didn’t do it because I’m like, “I cannot enjoy it right now.”

Dave: She’s not going to do it.

Arlene: But you tried; you tried.

Ann: I’m not as spontaneous as he is. But we went home; and then, we planned to come back.

Dave (52:29):

I booked it a week later; we came back on a Thursday night. I think we might have shared this: when we pulled back into Finlay—again, we did book the hotel, really nice room and where we’re going to eat that night—and before we went to the hotel, we stopped at every significant place in our dating relationship.

Ann (52:48):

—and in our growing-up relationship, because we both grew up there.

Dave (52:49):

It was pretty cool,—

Ann (52:51):

But when we got to—

Dave (52:52):

—and that was a surprise.

Ann (52:54):

—we went to the cemetery where his little brother was buried.

Dave (52:58):

He was buried, Craig.

Ann (52:59):

He was five years old when he died. And so we got out—and Dave had done this every week with your mom—you’d go.

Dave (53:04):

—growing up. Ann’s like, “You’re not going to know where his grave is.” I’m like, “Ding, ding, ding; here it is.” It was pouring down rain too. We just stood there and looked at it. She didn’t know I went there every week with my mom. I remember, as a kid, thinking, “Mom, this is dope stupid. What are we doing?” And now, I realize it wasn’t stupid.

Ann (53:21):

But even to have those conversations: “What did you feel, as a seven-year-old, when that was your little five-year-old brother?” We went to the schools where we each went to school. We talked about our highlights and the low moments of the school, and where we had our first date on the tennis court. It was so sweet. And that was just like: “Man, just to take the time”; it was a day and one night.

Dave (53:46):

That was a great trip.

Arlene (53:48):

My goodness.

Dave (53:49):

Do that folks; do that. Figure out a way to do something significantly special and surprising.

Ann (53:54):

And maybe, take our little diagnostic test.

Dave (53:56):

Alright, so we’ll do one more marriage diagnostic; we’ve done six. Kevin DeYoung wrote this blog. You can get that in the show notes if you want to see all ten. I think ours is as good as any of them. But here’s the last one: “When is the last time you embarrassed the kids together? Being playful and silly with your spouse shows love and provides a positive example for your children.”

Maria (54:23):

Well, we kind of talked about that with the smoochy kiss; we do that.

Dave (54:26):

That’s embarrassing and memorable.

Bruce (54:29):

I tell our girls: “You don’t understand how weird your mom and I are. My parents were not like this”; because we’ll do crazy dance parties or something, or belt out some ‘80s ballad—or I’m trying to think—I was just like, “You have no idea how—

Ann: —”awesome we are.”

Bruce: —normal my parents were.” My parents had self-dignity. And I have this thing where I will try to mispronounce things as bad as I can, but see if Google will still understand me. So I’ll be like, “Hey Google, what’s the fur-cast trrjrr?” And he’d be like, “The forecast today is…” I’m like, “It still knew!” I can’t even/my brain can’t even wrap my head around my dad doing that.

Maria (55:17):

—being goofy.

Dave: Your dad didn’t?

Bruce (55:18):

He could be goofy sometimes; but for the most part, he was pretty handsome-dignity.

Dave (55:24):

I embarrassed—our kids are adults—it’s hard to embarrass adults. Remember a couple months, it was last year, they were down here in Florida. Cody, with his kids, was with you. I went over to this little play area, and there was a high school football team there. They were running routes. I’m an old quarterback.

Bruce (55:44):

I’m embarrassed, just listening.

Dave (55:45):

I’m watching them run routes, and the guy throwing the ball is terrible. They had those jerseys on; so I thought, “These guys play somewhere near.” Next thing you know: I’m up there, “You guys need somebody to really throw the ball?” They look at this old guy—

Ann: Only Dave would do this.

Dave: —“Give me the ball,”—and I start whipping it. They’re like, “Oh, my gosh! You can throw!” They all start lining up. Cody comes over, and he goes, “Only Dad.”

Ann (56:05):

Wait; we come over—we’re in a golf cart; all of us—and our son, who was a receiver in the NFL, sees this.

Dave (56:13):

I threw to him his whole life.

Ann (56:15):

We look over; and there’s Dave, in the middle of this field.

Dave (56:19):

I don’t even have shoes on; I have bare feet.

Ann (56:21):

All these—a line of ten high school boys.

Bruce: Nobody asked, right?

Ann (56:26):

Nobody; he just went up. That’s what Cody said: “I guarantee Dad went up, and said, ‘Hey, you guys need me to throw to you?’”

Dave (56:33):

“I’ll throw.” I did.

Ann (56:34):

Bruce: That’s exactly what he did.

Ann: And then, it was like Cody is like, “I’m not surprised one bit. This is who my dad is—embarrassing—but super cool.” And he goes, “You know what the crazy thing is? All those kids think he’s amazing; he’s amazing.”

Dave (56:50):

They were pretty bad.

Bruce (56:51):

That must be a dad thing. My dad used to be Chief of fire and rescue in a little small town that we grew up in. But then, he retired from that. But if we saw an accident or something, he’d get out and start helping. Even if there was crew—

Ann: No, he wouldn’t.

Bruce: —“I’d be like, “Dad, I think they’ve got it covered.” He’s directing traffic and stuff. It’s like you just do what you do.

Ann (57:13):

That’s funny.

Arlene, do you have any?

Arlene: We are always embarrassing our children.

Ann: You are?

Arlene: Yes; because I’ll either be like: “Oh, can I do it too?!” It’s like, “Mom, just calm down.” Or I’m taking pictures of everything: “Mom, put away your phone. Stop taking pictures of it.” And then, James is constantly—constantly, if there’s music going—then his arms are flailing. He’s walking down the street like this, and his arms flip.

Ann: And he’s thinking he’s super cool. The kids are like, “No.”

Bruce: Does he know he’s not cool?

Arlene: He just does it; he knows he’s not cool. And he does it all the time.

Bruce (57:43):

But do the girls—

Arlene: —all the time.

Bruce: Do your kids know that he knows that he’s—

Arlene (57:46):

Yes, they do; but it’s still embarrassing.

Maria (57:49):

We don’t have teenagers yet, so our kids: it takes a lot to embarrass.

Dave (57:52):

They still think we’re funny.

Maria (57:53):

Yes.

Dave (57:54):

That’s good.

Bruce: I love it.

Dave: I think the principle here is: “Be free; take the risk to do something crazy.” I used to try and do accents in my sermon sometimes.

Bruce (58:07):

You’ve done them on FLT—

Dave (58:07):

So bad, so bad.

Bruce (58:08):

—on FamilyLife Today.

Dave (58:09):

And the boys were like: “Dad, just never even try.” The first one I did is Billy Crystal in some movie, like [imitating], “That’s marvelous!” or whatever. They’re like, “You just don’t.”

Ann (58:17):

Father of the Bride.

Dave (58:18):

Really?!

Ann (58:20):

No, no.

Dave (58:20):

“That’s marvelous!”

Ann (58:21):

It was something else.

Dave (58:22):

Anyway, I give up.

Maria (58:23):

Bruce, when you read aloud to the girls, your voices.

Bruce (58:26):

Yeah. She’s way better at the voices.

Ann (58:28):

Well I think that the idea, too, is: if we’re not intentional with some of these things, it won’t happen. And we talk about, at the Weekend to Remember marriage conference for FamilyLife, that we all drift toward isolation. We have to strategically and intentionally move toward oneness. And these are some good ways to make sure that we’re moving toward oneness.

Dave (58:50):

This brings you back toward oneness. I’m going to say them real quick:

Pray together.

Notice each other.

Hold hands.

Say, “I’m sorry.”

Say, “Thank you.”

Surprise each other.

Embarrass each other and the kids.

And guess what?—there’s three more. You’re going to have to go to the show notes and click on the article to get it.

Arlene, thank you.

Ann (59:12):

Amazing. Thanks for being with us.

Arlene: It’s been such a joy. Thank you.

Ann: Hey, thanks for watching. If you’d like this episode,—

Dave (59:21):

You better like it.

Ann (59:21):

—just hit that “Like” button.

Dave (59:22):

And we’d like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the “Subscribe”—

can’t say the word, “subscribe”—hit the “Subscribe” button. I don’t think I can say this

word!

Ann: I can subscribe.

Dave: Look at that! You say it so easily. “Subscribe”; there he goes!

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