How the Gospel Transforms Your Marriage and Overcomes Fear | Brant Hansen

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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Who Wouldn’t Want to follow THAT Jesus?

Guest: Brant Hansen

Release Date: September 4, 2025

Brant (00:00:00):

The fact that we get to spend [eternity], after we die, with God is incredible; it’s part of the gospel. Jesus talked about the gospel being: “The kingdom is now available to you. It’s now open for business; it’s here,”—that’s the good news—”You can step into this way of life now”; and there’s a cost to it. But here’s what I was telling these guys: “The cost of not doing it is higher.”

Dave (00:00:29):

Alright. Are you excited? We got Brant Hansen back in the studio.

Ann (00:00:32):

It is always a good day when Brant is here.

Brant: Oh, you guys.

Dave (00:00:35):

We feel that way about you, Brant.

Brant: Thank you!

Dave: And we do not say that about everybody.

Brant: Thank you.

Dave: I hope they’re not listening right now. All the rest of you are just not at the level Brant Hansen is. We can sing songs. We could put this interview on pause and sing songs from the ‘60s, ‘70s, ‘80s for probably an hour or two hours. We did that one time at your place.

Brant: Absolutely; yeah.

Ann (00:00:58):

We did it on the cruise ship too.

Dave (00:00:59):

Oh, yeah; that’s right. Nobody on the cruise knows; we went to their—

Ann (00:01:02):

And your wife, Carolyn, man, she knows the parts,—

Brant (00:01:05):

She can—

Ann (00:01:06):

—every part.

Brant (00:01:07):

We enjoy doing that. I’ve learned piano recently, but we’ll just sit there and do songs all the time.

Ann (00:01:13):

This is a new thing?!

Brant (00:01:14):

Yeah.

Ann (00:01:15):

That’s fun.

Dave: Of course, it is.

Brant (00:01:16):

I’m not bad at it’ I’m good enough that we can have a good time together, as a married couple. When you’re empty nesters, you can start learning other instruments.

Ann (00:01:22):

That’s true.

Dave: I’m going to do that.

Ann: I don’t. You do know piano.

Dave (00:01:25):

I can get away with it; I need to learn the left hand.

Ann (00:01:28):

Have you taken lessons?

Brant (00:01:29):

Two.

Dave: Two lessons?!

Brant (00:01:31):

They were really good; they were good lessons.

Ann (00:01:34):

They were good.

Brant (00:01:35):

What happens is you give up; and then, you’re like, “I just want to play it like I play guitar. You get a chord chart; and then, you go from there.”

Dave (00:01:41):

I can do that.

Ann (00:01:42):

That’s how you play, with chords.

Dave (00:01:43):

I play chord chart on the piano, but I don’t really know what I’m doing. I need the left hand to—anyway, why are we talking about this?! It’s a waste of time.

Ann (00:01:50):

Because Brant is just an interesting person. As we were having lunch today, Brant, you were talking to us about how you were invited to speak to a men’s breakfast.

Brant (00:02:00):

I am really amped about this.

Ann (00:02:04):

—the men’s breakfast?

Brant (00:02:06):

Sure, breakfast—

Dave: —dinner, lunch?

Brant: —I’m always amped.

They asked me to come speak at a businessman’s breakfast. They asked me to share the gospel; and they said, “We’ve got a lot of guys, who are professionals; but they’ll bring friends to this thing once a year.” This was in New Jersey. They wondered if I’d come up and speak. I’m like, “Well, sure.”

Ann (00:02:26):

It’s like an outreach they do once a year to invite a lot of people to.

Dave (00:02:30):

—not CBMC?

Brant (00:02:32):

Yes!

Dave (00:02:32):

CBMC; I’ve been to some of those.

Brant: Christian Business Men’s [Connection].

Brant (00:02:35):

It was really nice of them to ask. My stress was: “I’m not sure I’ll do it right”; because, honestly, when we talk about the gospel, a lot of times people have their own idea about what that is. I don’t know that we always understand how big it is and how wonderful it is. And the other thing is you can ask people to pray a prayer; and then, “Hey, you get to go to heaven when you die.” But that’s not what I wanted to talk about. I think we’re missing out on something; and that is, connecting to Jesus as our teacher. If it’s just about “I go to heaven when I die,” I’m missing out on something.

Ann (00:03:13):

—on that relationship piece.

Brant (00:03:14):

Yes, which I’m convinced is a better way to live. We don’t talk about that. So I was kind of wondering—I was like, “Is it okay if I do it this way?”—they’re like, “Okay, sure.”

Ann (00:03:24):

So how did you start it? What did it sound like to start it?

Brant (00:03:27):

I told them: “This is the best deal you’re ever going to hear. It’s like a pearl merchant, recognizing something so great that you’re willing to cash it all in for this. You don’t have to do anything—God gives you free will—you can decide; you can walk away. People walked away from Jesus.”

Ann (00:03:44):

So there’s no pressure.

Brant (00:03:45):

No pressure at all—there was no emotional appeal; there’s no music; there was no fog lights or whatever; there’s no lasers—it was just me laying out: “Here’s why the way of Jesus is actually better than not the way.” I think this is really important for people to communicate, because it is. You just have to lay out why.

Ann (00:04:08):

So Brant, as you’re talking about this—and I can’t wait to hear where you’re going—but I’m just thinking of how we talk to our kids about this. It’s not like, “Hey, just pray this prayer.” You’re saying, “No; it’s way better than that.”

Brant (00:04:19):

“It’s way better.” The fact that we get to spend [eternity], after we die, with God is incredible; it’s part of the gospel. Jesus talked about the gospel being: “The kingdom is now available to you. It’s now open for business; it’s here,”—that’s the good news—”You can step into this way of life now”; and there’s a cost to it. But here’s what I was telling these guys: “The cost of not doing it is higher.” Yeah, there’s a cost; but the cost of not doing is higher. I just went down the list.

Ann (00:04:53):

Tell us the list.

Brant (00:04:54):

Well, let’s talk about fear of death. I’m not afraid of death because of who Jesus is, and my following Him, and learning His ways. I don’t have to deal with that. Can you imagine living life, where you’re not afraid?

Ann (00:05:05):

I’m sitting there—you guys know this; because Dave, you did the same thing with 500 men—is that a thing that we fear?—death?

Dave (00:05:11):

Oh, everybody does.

Brant: Yes, aging, death.

Death: I think it’s universal.

Ann (00:05:14):

It’s women, too, for sure.

Dave (00:05:15):

The most manly, courageous, stud-dog man is afraid of death, like a little boy.

Brant (00:05:21):

The biggest stud-dog man of all—you’re right.

It’s funny to me because you can talk about being freed from it. Our whole culture’s afraid of death; we can’t even talk about it.

Ann (00:05:35):

And we don’t.

Brant (00:05:36):

How about not being afraid? I’m not afraid!

Dave (00:05:39):

You had other ones, and that’s all I need right there.

Brant (00:05:43):

You would think, right?

Ann (00:05:44):

You said, “I’m not afraid.”

Brant (00:05:46):

I’m like, “Guys, it’s not because I’m a superhero. I’m obviously not at all; most of the guys in this room could beat me up. But imagine living a life where you’re not—and this is shifting into another problem—our whole culture does not know how to handle anxiety; we’re sick with anxiety. Imagine being the non-anxious presence in your neighborhood, in your home, where you’re no longer nervous about anything.”

Ann (00:06:13):

It’s funny, Brant, that you say that. Just a few weeks ago, I’m on a table, having this stent put in. I remember, right before, the doctor’s, like, “Okay, you ready?” I said, “Yeah,” and “Lord, will You bless his hands and what he’s about to do?” As I was on the table, I thought, “Well, God, either You have more for me here; but if not, it’s even better.” There’s no loss; it’s Paul’s words: “To live is Christ, to die is gain.”

Brant (00:06:41):

It’s a win-win. It’s: “Surely, Your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life.”

Ann: —all the days of my life.

Dave (00:06:46):

I could say I was, out in the waiting room, praying the same thing—I wasn’t praying that—I didn’t want you to go.

Ann (00:06:52):

I didn’t either. But I also know I don’t have any control of that.

Brant (00:06:55):

Here’s the thing—we’re all humans—but we do become less anxious people by following Jesus and learning how relaxed He is in how He responds to things. He said He came to bring us a rich and satisfying life—that’s from John 10:10—that doesn’t start after you die; it’s now. We actually have to learn His ways—how to bless your enemies—it’s not just anxiety; how would you like to not be angry?

Ann (00:07:27):

Well, I’m just imagining. You’ve hit death, anxiety.

Brant (00:07:31):

I’m making a list right here.

Brant: What?! Really.

Ann (00:07:32):

Yeah.

Brant (00:07:33):

These are things our culture has no way of handling. Jesus is a genius; He’s the smartest man who ever lived. I use this example all the time—and I’ve mentioned it with you before too—but there are endocrinologists who tell us that anxiety and anger kill us. They have such a deleterious effect on our physiognomy. Here’s Jesus, 2,000 years ago, modeling how we can live without it; because He loves us. It ages us; it makes us put on weight; it costs us in terms of our heart. There’s all of these problems that come from our not knowing what to do with anxiety or anger. We’re not equipped for this; Jesus gives us a way to do it.

Ann (00:08:19):

What do you think, in our culture—people who have anxiety and/or anger—how are we coping with those without Christ?

Brant (00:08:28):

We are not. That’s just it. All the suggestions—

Dave: —escape.

Ann (00:08:31):

—and numb out.

Dave (00:08:33):

—alcohol; you name it.

Brant: Sure.

Ann (00:08:36):

[We’re] hiding into something, because we can’t deal with it—you’re saying.

Brant (00:08:39):

Yes, our culture is bankrupt on this. If you read—and I’ve read a lot—it could be New York Times, The Atlantic, or whatever, they’ll talk about our culture: “Epidemic of Anxiety,” “Epidemic of Anger.” What do you do? Well, you count to ten; you listen to some music; you—

Ann (00:08:53):

—meditate.

Brant (00:08:54):

It doesn’t work. People are seething with anger, and it’s ruining people’s homes.

Jesus is talking about blessing those who curse you. He’s talking about forgiving people out of gratitude that we have for being forgiven, because we’ve been forgiven; and what that looks like. On the Sermon on the Mount, He starts with anger when He’s talking about how to live. It is the most fundamental human problem; He’s giving us a way out of it.

Ann (00:09:21):

I’m thinking about the people listening right now; they’re like: “No, you don’t understand. I’m dealing with that right now; and I do have Jesus, and I am angry too. So how do I apply that eternity right now? What’s that look like? How can I get out of that?”

Brant (00:09:35):

Well, if I’m trusting God with His justice, I have to hand that over to Him—that is a very real thing—I am not here to meet out all of justice in this world.

The other thing is, it really is going to kill you. It does not help if you’re going to live with this. The point is: anger happens; it’s like a warning light on a dashboard. We’re told to get rid of it before the sun goes down. It’s not a sin, in and of itself; but thinking we’re entitled to it is a sin, because it’ll destroy us. God actually loves us, so this is a way to freedom. If you’re like, “Well, I can’t just let this go,” well, then, you’re going to be carrying it with you for the rest of your life.

This is what I’m telling these guys, too: “Look, it’s hard to forgive people, but it’s way harder to live a life of bitterness.”

Ann (00:10:28):

You’re saying, literally: “It’ll kill you.”

Brant (00:10:29):

“It’ll kill you.” You have to carry that around, and it torpedoes your family. It torpedoes your relationships. You’re not living at peace. You don’t have peace in your home, because you think you’re entitled to carry this thing around. Jesus is saying, “Don’t do that.” His way is smarter. Again, it’s a better way to live!

He’s a genius in every field; He knows. So when He’s telling us to be like the birds of the air, well, animals don’t carry anger around with them. They have a fight-or-flight response, but it’s over quickly. They don’t—they’re not borrowing trouble—that could happen next month. Again, everything Jesus is telling us is a genius way to live that’s actually lighter and better. I’m like, “Guys, imagine laughing more, not being afraid, not being as threatened by people.” And how about this?—”How about not being ashamed?”

Ann (00:11:23):

Oh, you’re hitting all these biggies. All of us are dealing with all of these.

Dave (00:11:28):

I’m writing down everything you’re saying.

Brant (00:11:30):

Nice; well, how about that? Is this a better way of life or not? We’re all going to carry around shame. Look what God does with Adam. I use Adam as an example when I wrote about this in The Men We Need. He blows it; he’s responsible for mass destruction. And when he blows it, God comes looking for him, and says, “Where’d you go? What happened to us? We used to walk together.” And then, He clothes Adam. The clothes He puts on Adam and Eve are royal garments; the word is kuttoneth. It’s not just primitive furs that He’s putting on; these are royal robes.

“Do you know that God still wants to cover you?”—that’s what I’m saying to guys—”He still wants to walk with you. He wants to partner with you in your business. Do you know that He’s a great partner to have?”

Ann (00:12:24):

—no matter what you’ve done.

Brant: —no matter what.

Ann: You’re right: Adam’s sin cost all of us. All of us are experiencing the consequences. And yet, God continued to pursue him; told him: “Come out of hiding; I’m here.”

Brant (00:12:36):

“I’m here; I want to walk with you.” Guys, you can walk with—you don’t have to—He’s not going to force you to love Him. That’s the big experiment; isn’t it? It seems like that’s the thing in Job, where the enemy’s like, “Yeah, you have to force these people to love You. You have to give them so much.”

Will we freely love Him? My answer is, “Yes.” As I’ve studied Jesus’ way of living—not living in shame anymore, even though I am a sinner, present tense; everyone in this room is—but He still wants to clothe you with royal garments. That’s what He thinks of you. This is a better way to live, guys.

Ann (00:13:17):

It’s the gospel, and it doesn’t even make sense.

Brant (00:13:20):

It’s so good.

Ann (00:13:21):

It’s so good!

Brant (00:13:22):

It’s so good. Jesus said, “If you understand it, you’re going to go, ‘I want that; I want that.’” Rarely, in church culture, I’ve noticed—and I’m in Christian radio too—rarely, in Christian radio, do we really unpack what the gospel of the kingdom actually is. The good news is here—”I have good news; look at all the good stuff,”—this isn’t bad news.

And just like we were talking about Psalm 23: the rest of your life, you get to grow in this. You get to become a rock for your family; you’re a beacon of peace in your family. You have peace in your home. You’re not threatened by other guys, like you used to be. You’re not worried about tomorrow—imagine that—and then, when you die, you’re stepping into the kingdom in its fullness.

Dave (00:14:16):

I’m guessing 500 guys gave their life to Jesus that same day.

Brant (00:14:19):

Well, honestly, there were hundreds of guys who were believers. I think there were probably 150 guys who weren’t. I think they told me that; they have these response cards afterward. They had 90 guys say, for the first time in their lives, “I want this.”

Ann (00:14:33):

Come on!

Brant (00:14:34):

What they do so well is they meet each week in small groups—they disciple people—so the gospel, as I’m explaining it, matches up to discipleship. It doesn’t leave you hanging like, “Okay, I said the thing. Now, I go to heaven when I die. Now what?”

Ann (00:14:51):

Now, you get to learn the relationship piece.

Brant (00:14:53):

Yes; “He’s my Rabbi; He’s my Teacher; I’m going to learn from Him.”

Ann (00:14:55):

“I’m going to follow Him.”

Brant (00:14:56):

Yeah; “I’m going to follow.” Jesus is looking for followers.

Ann (00:14:59):

What do you guys think that means?—to follow Jesus—what’s that look like, practically speaking?

Brant (00:15:05):

I think it’s the stuff we’re talking about.

Ann (00:15:07):

Me too.

Brant (00:15:07):

You actually take what He says seriously. He even said to His disciples: “Go out and make other disciples, teaching them to obey the things I’ve commanded you to do.”

Ann (00:15:18):

This is the thing: “Why does He say to obey?” Because He loves them, and because He doesn’t want them to experience the pain that comes from the consequences of our sin.

Brant (00:15:26):

True; that’ll be: “Teaching them to obey what I’ve said.” He did say things about how to live. They’re very practical; but unfortunately—I feel like churches could, if they wanted, put a sign up that says: “Hey, Tuesday night at 7:00, we’re going to teach you how to follow Jesus.” It could be: “Here’s how to bless your enemies; how to bless people in traffic, who are cursing you.” This is so practical; so doable, and it changes your heart. I’ve joked with you guys about this before: “Traffic is forgiveness practice.” The practice—as you know in your athletic background, and for both of you—you can do things that you couldn’t do before because you trained.

Following Jesus is the same thing. At first, you’re like: “I can’t just say ‘bless…’; I can’t pray for blessings on some guy who just cut me off.” You can; and when you do, and you make it a habit, it’ll become second nature. You won’t even react in the moment; you won’t be throwing a fit like you used to, because now you’re different. Why? You’re learning the rhythm of life with Jesus; He’s your Rabbi. You take your cues from Him: “How does He act? Okay, so I do want to bless people who curse me. I do want to forgive people, because I’ve been forgiven. Alright; I do want to pray for those who are out to get me.”

This is a doable way of life. It turns out Jesus knows what He’s talking about; it’s the best way of life that is available. “Now, do you want it?”

Dave (00:17:02):

So often, we think of following Jesus as: “Do nots.” So often, that’s where the churches started: “Do not curse,” “Do not have sex, outside [of marriage],” “Do not…”—which are all good things; you shouldn’t. But we don’t talk about what you just presented to those men. Who doesn’t want that?

Brant:

Brant (00:17:30):

Who doesn’t want it? Why can’t we present it that way?” It’s true.

Dave: If you follow Him, the “Do nots” will happen. Those desires are going to fall away.

Brant: The Pharisees, were doing the “Do nots,” They’re doing that way of life: “Do not do this,” “Do not do that.” Jesus is like, “Look, clean the inside of the cup.”

Here’s the thing: it gets easier when you become a different person. You become the type of person who now responds differently in the moment, because you’ve been doing this stuff; and it becomes more second nature. It’s easier to do it. At first, you can’t just speak German: “I’m going to speak German now,”—I can’t do that—but I could become that person if I trained under a teacher. It’s the same thing as I learn the ways of Jesus—I put it into practice—you become a different person.

I told the guys: “Guys, this is an easier way to live.” In a lot of church culture, they’re like, “You can’t say that; it’s harder,”—it’s not—Jesus said it’s easier.

Ann (00:18:19):

“My yoke is easy.”

Brant (00:18:19):

It’s lighter; He said so. Now, you do have to deny yourself, but it turns out that leads to a more easy way of life.

Ann (00:18:28):

—and more freedom.

Brant (00:18:29):

—more freedom, more freedom. So when somebody hits you, you’re so free that they don’t determine your next move. The natural human reaction is you hit back; but in the kingdom-way-of-life, it’s not my natural reaction anymore: “You don’t dictate my next move.”

Ann (00:18:45):

It’s so good.

Brant (00:18:46):

It’s so good; this is a better way of living.

Ann (00:18:48):

I’m just sitting here, thinking about myself as a parent with kids. When they were growing up/teenagers—as I’m talking about the gospel, and Scripture, and all of that—I’m thinking, “Man, I think maybe I’d present it in that way now.” I think, before, we’re so focused on: “Do you know Jesus? Did you say the prayer?”—instead of saying—“Are you following Him?” and “Do you know how good it is to follow Him?”—those things.

How did you present that?—you and Carolyn with the kids.

Brant (00:19:18):

Well, I’m learning as I go.

Ann (00:19:21):

Aren’t we all? I would be so much better now!

Brant (00:19:22):

What’s cool is, as you’re listening, if you’re like, “Well, I’ve never really thought about it this way,”—okay; that’s cool. We’re still learning, aren’t we?

Ann (00:19:29):

—always.

Brant (00:19:30):

Well, wait; if we’re disciples, we’re always in learner mode.

Ann (00:19:32):

—always.

Dave: That’s what it means.

Brant (00:19:33):

That’s not going to end. But the hard thing about is—if we’re not teaching this to people—we’re not teaching them to follow Jesus practically; we’re actually making their lives harder.

Ann (00:19:44):

What do you mean?

Brant (00:19:45):

We can be like, “I want to make things convenient and cool,”—”Hey, don’t stress out about it. Just say the prayer; go to heaven.” You’re not teaching them this way of life that’s actually easier. So now, they’re stuck in these patterns and things. You haven’t taught them.

Ann (00:19:58):

It’s like getting in a car; you don’t know how to drive, like, “Hey, good luck!” And they’re crashing all over the place.

Brant (00:20:03):

That makes it harder, doesn’t it?

Ann: Yes!

Brant (00:20:05):

When Jesus talks about the narrow way and the wide way, He doesn’t say the wide way is actually easy. Now, there’s a couple translations that throw that word in there—but it’s not in the Greek—it’s just “narrow” and “wide.” He actually says the wide way leads to destruction, which does not sound easy to me.

He also talks about—when He tells us how to live, and He wraps up the Sermon on the Mount with—there’s a guy who builds his house on the sand; a guy who builds his house on the rock. Well, it’s hard to build a house, but who’s got it easy now after the storm? This is not the hardest way to live—this is a freeing way to live—but it’s a narrow way. Most will choose anything but Jesus. But the people who do find that door, they find that: “Wait, this is actually a lighter, easier yoke in life. Instead of worshiping somebody else, I will learn from Him.” Again, He’s a genius; He knows how to live; He made us.

Ann (00:21:05):

So the person who’s saying, “I want that. I want to be discipled. I want to follow Jesus. I’m just going to church on Sundays, you guys. What does it look like to follow Him? How do I do that?”

Brant (00:21:16):

I hope they have relationships with people who are being discipled or that the church is actually discipling people. We tend to think of disciples as somebody, like, “Oh, you’re getting really extreme with the whole Christian thing.” That’s not it at all. There’s only one thing that is being a disciple or not.

Ann (00:21:33):

It’s a learner.

Brant (00:21:35):

I think that explains a lot of hypocrisy that we see, because people never stepped into this way of life. If they did, they wouldn’t want to step out of it. My challenge, I guess, would be, from my perspective: “I hope more of us believers begin to understand things this way.”

Ann (00:21:56):

Me too.

Brant (00:21:57):

And then, it’s easy to talk to people about this; and then, go, “Hey, are you interested in it?” And then, “We can study Jesus stuff together. We can talk, practically, about how we can bless people who don’t like us; or pray for people who hate us,” and “Let’s live this out.”

Dave (00:22:11):

I’m guessing you got invited to come back and do that again.

Brant (00:22:15):

I hope so. Yeah, they liked it. I love talking about this stuff, because I think it’s so important. It’s something we’ve been missing as a culture—not everybody—but it’d be nice to see this catch fire.

Ann: Me too.

Dave (00:22:30):

Your thoughts, Brant—that’s why we love you—you’re so fresh.

Brant (00:22:34):

Well, thanks!

Dave (00:22:35):

You come from a different angle that many people aren’t thinking. I got to be honest—I speak quite a bit at men’s events—I steal Brant Hansen stuff every time; I give you credit every time: “Let me tell you what my friend, Brant Hansen, says: ‘The keeper of the garden,’”—the whole thing—I’m not kidding.

Ann (00:22:55):

It’s so good.

Dave (00:22:56):

Everywhere I go, people are like, “This is really fresh.” I’m like, “Yeah, get the book.”

Brant (00:22:59):

Cool; thank you.

Dave (00:22:59):

If our listeners haven’t—or watchers, actually—haven’t read The Men We Need, which isn’t what we’re really talking about today—

Ann (00:23:07):

Well, this sounds like it’s going to be a new book.

Dave (00:23:08):

—I’m just going to tell you it’s in our show notes. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com/Show Notes; there’s a link there you can go to get the book.

Ann (00:23:14):

And when you have this new book—have you started this?—this is a whole new—

Brant (00:23:18):

I have; I just started it.

Ann (00:23:19):

You have. We’ll have you back on when we—

Dave: Does it have a title?

Brant (00:23:21):

I want to call it: “The Best Deal Ever.”

Ann (00:23:24):

Yeah, that’s good.

Brant (00:23:25):

Thanks. I haven’t told my publisher that; so hopefully, they’ll like it. We’ll see. I really do think it’s like the pearl and the treasure in the field; that’s the kingdom!

Dave (00:23:38):

Before we continue, let me say this: at FamilyLife, we really believe strong families can change the world. When you become a FamilyLife Partner, you can make that happen.

Ann (00:23:48):

I don’t know if you realize this: your monthly gift helps us equip marriages and families with biblical tools that they can count on.

Dave (00:23:57):

That’s a pretty cool deal. We also want to send you exclusive updates, behind-the-scenes access, and an invitation to our private Partner community, which is also pretty cool. Join us, and let’s reach marriages and families together.

Ann (00:24:10):

You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and click the “Donate” button to join today; that’s FamilyLifeToday.com.

Ann: The idea of following Jesus—I’m sitting here and thinking of our listeners right now—I think that’s what we’re inviting them to do: “Will you follow Him?” Because you don’t have to have the answers right away; the disciples didn’t know everything; they’re like, “Okay, we’ll follow You.”

Brant (00:24:34):

Totally.

Ann (00:24:34):

And they just learned along the way.

Brant (00:24:36):

Right; isn’t that great?

Ann: Yes.

Brant (00:24:37):

You can invite somebody into that now.

Ann: It takes pressure off.

Brant: Right.

Dave (00:24:39):

You answer this: “How is following Jesus the best way to live in your marriage?”

Brant (00:24:44):

Oh, goodness; that’s a great question. Being a less-anxious person helps in the home, so I’ll start with that. Just the peace that comes from that for both of us, personally. The forgiveness that becomes first nature as you practice this with your enemies at work, or on the road, or whatever—you’re praying for them—it changes your demeanor. That becomes the default in the home.

Ann (00:25:15):

Less anger is always helpful.

Brant (00:25:17):

There’s this gentleness that we develop. There’s a lack of neediness that comes over you, over time. This is a process.

Ann (00:25:30):

You don’t try to find your life through your spouse, because you have found it in following Jesus.

Brant (00:25:36):

Yeah; it’s like that’s the peace thing—regardless of circumstances, you’re okay—that takes a lot of the heat out of some of the need that gets sidetracked in our marriages. I think those are really practical things.

I’ve decided long ago, I think as a process in this, but I actually want to be more polite with my wife inside the house than I’m with anybody else outside it; so that there’s a gentleness. I’m more gentle with her than I am with a stranger, instead of inverting it. A lot of times, that’s what happens—we treat other people with more respect than in our homes—I want to invert that.

Ann (00:26:23):

We just did a segment on that: “Why are we nicer to the people?”—just yesterday.

Dave (00:26:27):

Who you are at home is who you really are—that kind of thing.

I do remember in college—I gave my life to Christ in college—prayed a prayer; chose to start following Christ. I remember one of the first things I noticed starting to change—it didn’t change immediately; but immediately, I noticed it—it was, walking into that, I thought everything in my life is about—guess what?—me! I’m a college quarterback at the time, so I even get to go out on a field and all these people are looking at me! I realized, immediately, “It’s not about me. In fact, it never has been. I’m supposed to consider others valuable, not me. I’m not the most important person in the room; actually, other people are.” Selfish to selfless was a big shift.

Brant: It takes the pressure off.

Dave: That, obviously, applies in marriage.

Brant (00:27:21):

Thinking about the pressure, when Christians would say in the early-going, “Jesus is Lord,”—that was a big deal—it meant: “Jesus is Caesar; I’ll tell you who Caesar is.” That’s a big deal—but it also means: “ I’m not Caesar. If I say Jesus is Lord, I’m not Lord,”—well, that’s a big relief.

Dave (00:27:48):

And your marriage doesn’t become about my spouse meeting my needs—it’s actually not—it’s irrelevant.

Brant (00:27:54):

That the whole posture changes to: “How am I helping other people flourish?”—which is absolutely life-giving. But the neat thing is: this is something you can step into now, even if you never understood it this way. You can step into this now, and the people around you will benefit immediately. You’ll grow from here. There’ll be an immediate change in posture when you realize, “Wait a second. Okay, I’m going to bless my enemies.” That may be the people in my home many times; they’re the ones who are driving us crazy. This practice will change that.

Ann (00:28:35):

I think a lot of our listeners are probably followers—and have been followers of Jesus—but they haven’t invited somebody to go on a journey with them to follow Jesus: “Hey, you want to follow Jesus with me?” In terms of that’s that discipleship piece: “Hey, you want to hang out and get coffee once a week? I can tell you how Jesus is changing me and how I’m failing, sometimes; but my purpose, my anxiety, my anger, my shame is all different. It’s not overnight, but I’m changing.”

Brant (00:29:07):

Well, it is such a neat thing to do with people too, because—

Ann (00:29:11):

—it’s ongoing.

Brant (00:29:11):

You can practice this during the week, and get back and huddle: “Okay, how did it go with your boss? You said you hated him, so you started praying for him. Now, how are you feeling about him?” It’s remarkable because you know, as soon as somebody starts praying for somebody that drives them crazy, your heart starts to turn towards that person. You’re actually for them. Now, you’re so full of blessing that, when somebody knocks into you, it just pours out instead of curses. That’s fun to watch other people come alive like that, and you’re on the journey with them. Jesus is our Teacher.

Ann (00:29:49):

We’re following Him together.

Brant (00:29:50):

We’re learning from Him and we’re doing it. It’s an exciting way to actually do this thing.

Dave (00:29:57):

Now, we were talking to you earlier: you talked to 500 men at a breakfast; and then, you ended up in prison.

Ann (00:30:05):

Hey, I was thinking we should call this whole thing: “Brant Hansen’s Adventures”; because then he’s like, “We were having lunch”; and then, Brant says, “Oh, yeah, you know what I did?”

Dave (00:30:13):

Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure: [This would be] “Brant’s Excellent Adventures”—whatever you want to call it.

Brant (00:30:19):

“…Misadventures.”

Dave: How did you end up in prison?

Ann (00:30:20):

You used somebody’s pickleball racket.

Brant (00:30:24):

This is my new claim to fame.

Dave: —paddle.

Ann (00:30:25):

—paddle.

Dave: —paddle.

Ann: Sorry.

Dave: It’s a paddle.

Ann: —pickleball paddle.

Brant (00:30:28):

I just used the Menendez brothers’ pickleball paddles, which I did not see coming.

Dave (00:30:36):

That’s a chapter title right there! What does that mean?

Ann: For our listeners, who don’t know who they are—

Brant (00:30:41):

Yeah, Erik and Lyle Menendez; they’re in prison in Southern California—I wound up in their yard—it’s a max-security prison. They do have a pickleball court, but we used their paddles.

I got to speak at this prison because a friend of mine had an in there. It was about 200 guys. I talked for—I did four separate hour-long sessions—

Dave (00:31:07):

Really?

Ann: Wow!

Brant (00:31:10):

—about anger and forgiveness.

What was wild: I had a guy helping me with audio/visual stuff—super nice guy, really smart—he was one of the prisoners. Another guy was helping me with another thing, organizationally, getting set up/setting up chairs. We’re laughing and talking about stuff.

Ann (00:31:32):

These are all inmates—

Brant (00:31:33):

Yeah, all inmates. We’re getting along great.

Dave (00:31:35):

—for life, right?

Ann (00:31:37):

They’re in for life?—all of them.

Brant: I went home after the first day—and Googled—the crimes are so unspeakable. It was like several of them had been subjects of True Crime podcasts and 48 Hours episodes; absolutely unbelievable crimes.

Ann (00:32:05):

Would you have ever guessed it?

Brant (00:32:06):

No.

Ann (00:32:06):

Never.

Brant (00:32:08):

No. You wind up thinking about stuff: “Hey, I’m not the guy”—anybody who knows me knows this—”but if you think of a guy, who can go in and talk to tough guys, you wouldn’t pick me. I play the accordion; I play the flute, all that stuff.” We’ve laughed about that. But the neat thing was, not having any tattoos and owning up to the fact that I’m a nerd, actually helped.

Ann (00:32:36):

Why do you think?

Brant (00:32:37):

They told me that they get used to people coming in and presenting; it’s all about them. They felt like what I was doing was I was genuinely not trying to impress them. And that was quite true; I wasn’t. I think not having any hope of impressing them—I don’t have a motorcycle; I can’t say, “Yeah, I know what it’s like to be on the streets,” or whatever—I’m from a small town in the Midwest. Our biggest disagreement was between the John Deere people and the International Harvester people.

It’s daunting though. I was thinking about the grace of God. When I’m sharing with church people, it just comes easy. And then these guys—what they’ve done—wow! There’s one guy, who was writing the whole time I was talking, just scribbling, scribbling, scribbling, scribbling. My friend asked, “What are you doing?” He’s like, “I’m sharing this with my wife. This is everything; this is gold.’ He had murdered two people, strangers, when he was 14; it was just one of the most brutal random things. And then, the backstory for him is so horrible—what he had gone through as a kid—absolutely, that’s what you would get with that sort of treatment that he went through.

Ann (00:34:08):

—that would be the outcome.

Brant (00:34:10):

Yeah. He’s writing all this stuff down feverishly—I don’t know that he ever gets out of prison, and I don’t even know how he met his wife—but that’s the story for all these guys. There were guys there, who were 70/75 years old; they’re never leaving that place—guys with canes; guys in wheelchairs—older guys have been there for years.

Ann (00:34:32):

Man, it’s like: “How do you even—

Dave: It’s their life.

Ann: —”live like that or have any kind of hope?”

Brant (00:34:39):

Right. What was neat, too, they had a church service. I’m just being honest here—they had a band of inmates; and the equipment wasn’t great; and they weren’t the greatest at their instruments, per se; if you go to a mega church, they’re not making it through the [auditions]; and the guy, who led the singing, was an older gentleman, who would turn and face the screen so that he could see the lyrics too—it did not sound very professional. And that was the best worship service I have been to—there was no polish—but man, those guys were letting it out. Again, the hope of getting out is not happening for almost all these guys.

Dave (00:35:35):

Why was it so great?

Brant (00:35:37):

I don’t know! I can tell you why, from my perspective, the singing was visceral.

Ann (00:35:45):

They meant it; they needed it.

Brant (00:35:48):

Right. Every word in that, every song lyric—“Bless the Lord, O my soul,” “The sun comes up; it’s a new day dawning,”—and then, there’s all these men just belting it out.

Ann (00:36:05):

I’m just going to cry the whole time.

Brant: Seriously.

Ann: It’s a picture of the gospel: they don’t deserve it; neither do we. But they certainly don’t, because that’s what they feel too.

Brant (00:36:15):

I think that’s why it was so great too. My friend and I—his wife’s a brilliant worship leader—and we both know some musicians wo are well-known, blah, blah, blah. It occurred to us both: “Hey, we could get this guy…” “…that lady in here,” or “…that worship band,”—and it dawned on us, simultaneously—“That would ruin it.”

Ann (00:36:37):

No.

Brant (00:36:39):

This isn’t about polish. It’s not like: “Now, next week,—

Ann (00:36:42):

—”that’ll be way better.”

Brant (00:36:43):

“Yeah, I remember: you guys aren’t any good.” It was a heart thing.

And the neat thing was: I got to get up—again, I’m talking about The Men We Need, the book—I was talking about masculinity. A) Jesus leveled the moral playing field:

I know what you guys did. You don’t know that I’m as guilty. It’s not as obvious—I’m not wearing the uniform—but Jesus levels the playing field. He’s like, “If you’ve hated someone,”—some people have hated people, but they don’t have the guts or the wherewithal to go through with it—they just didn’t do it. But Jesus said, “You’re just as guilty,”—so none of us—we’re all here.

The remarkable thing, again, is that Adam is responsible for millions of deaths. God wanted to walk the rest of his days with him. When they left the garden, God did not kick them out; and then, said, “Goodbye.” He kicked them out and went with them after they blew it for all of humanity. He clothed them in royal garments. I want you guys to know that you are still in that relationship with Him if you want to partner with Him.

Most of those guys who came to the church—if not all, but most were believers—but they still/we all need to hear that; because we’re all ashamed of ourselves, without this covering.

Ann (00:38:32):

I’m just picturing them—imagining what they’ve done—but Jesus clothing them with royal garments. How contrary that must be to what they hear the enemy speaking to them of their horrible crimes.

Dave (00:38:50):

I’m sure they heard it from their dad.

Ann (00:38:52):

Yeah; “Surely, you are not worthy of eternal life; because you have blown it.” I’m just thinking of the enemy, the accuser, constantly saying, “You don’t deserve anything.” And yet, Jesus clothing them and wanting to walk with them. It’s so contrary to the world.

Brant (00:39:11):

And when you talk to people about it—it’s not like: “You need to know this”; it’s more like: “Let’s just look at this thing together: ‘How in the world? I don’t deserve that either; nobody out there does.”

Ann: —nobody.

Brant: And they know that too; they’re like: “There’s bad people out there too.”

Ann (00:39:31):

“They may not be in here, but they’re still…”

Brant (00:39:33):

None of us. But the whole—instead of make a presentation—I think having the posture of: “Let’s all just marvel at this together,”—is probably a good posture for any church service, anytime. But in that environment, it’s especially poignant; and it’s instructive to me.

Then, you develop a heart—and you know what?—the people who do prison ministry: I’ve heard this from people who do prison ministry; and they’re like, “Yeah, Brant, it’s the best thing ever.” They’re so excited about it.” I didn’t get it until then; and I’m like, “Okay; now, I get it.”

Dave (00:40:15):

Why? Why?

Brant (00:40:16):

Because of the honesty and the desperation.

Ann (00:40:20):

What else do they have?!

Brant (00:40:22):

Right! And so the desire to learn/the hunger to learn—guys were there, who weren’t believers—they just wanted to learn. One guy’s like, “I’m not a Christian; I want to ask you about this: ‘How do you handle this and that?’” I’m like, “Hey, I appreciate that; I’ll answer this question.” They’re like, “Okay, I want to learn the thing/I want to learn Scripture.” The believers who are there: there’s a hunger to learn.

I know this, too, from experience, and even looking at Scripture, we know this: “Desperate wins—

Ann: —“always.”

Brant: —”every time.” If somebody’s more desperate to get to Jesus, then they go to the front of the line—if they want to cut through the ceiling—and everybody else is like, “You can’t do that!”

Ann (00:40:58):

—if you want to grab His robe, just a tassel.

Brant (00:41:00):

Absolutely; there’s a huge crowd. And there’s an important guy who just asked Jesus to heal his daughter. And then, she’s so desperate to get to him that, now, the guy has to wait. The crowd disappears from the scene; the crowd’s not even mentioned again. He’s just laser-focused on this woman, who shouldn’t even be there; but she’s desperate. Desperate wins!

There’s this awareness of God being here that we can miss, I think. I get it now. I’m sorry—all the prison ministry people, listening to this—and you’re like, “Yeah, we know; I’ve been doing this for 20 years.” It’s incredible; I understand now.

Dave (00:41:40):

Well, we try to cover up desperate.

Brant (00:41:43):

Totally.

Dave (00:41:44):

That makes us look weak and frail, and we want to be strong. “I’m not desperate. That guy’s desperate, but not me.” I feel the same way about Celebrate Recovery in churches. Whenever I walk in that room, I’m like, “I’m with the most honest people in our church.”

Brant (00:41:59):

Yes, I agree.

Dave (00:42:00):

They’ve been to the bottom. They’re not hiding anymore; their addiction’s out. And they’re like, “Okay, help.”

Brant (00:42:06):

Recovery Church is a church network that’s really taken off across the country; it’s amazing. But it’s all people coming from addictions.

Ann (00:42:14):

Well, I’m even thinking of our listeners, who are desperate—because their kids are just struggling—

Dave: —or their marriage.

Ann: —or they’ve walked away from their marriage; or someone’s sick—it can feel like the worst place ever to be. It feels like that. I’ve been there; I understand that. But there’s also such a neediness that you’re on your face before God, and that’s the beauty of that place: “We can’t do it, Lord, apart from You.”

Brant (00:42:40):

That’s a good place to be. My understanding in my life—I keep reading the Bible and keep seeing the same thing, over and over—He draws closer to you because of that; He’s close to the brokenhearted. He stores your tears in a bottle. I call that: “The desperation just wins with Him.”

I think, if you are in that sort of a situation—and this is what I experienced in Recovery Church—I remember they’re singing. The worship band is all people who have come out of addictions. They’re not paid; there’s no paid staff; it’s amazing. But there’s this incredible visceral gratitude in the room and desperation. When you sing—“My chains are gone; I’ve been set free,”—literally, their hands are raised. You see people—they’re belting it out—it’s not just words; it’s not just going through the motions; but that’s understanding I have, from Scriptures: “That is a great place to be. He is closer to us than ever”; so you’ve got a different place with Him.

The other thing I’ve learned, too, in praying is you do feel desperate for your kids or something like that. Tell God—

Ann (00:43:56):

Tell God everything.

Brant (00:43:58):

—with that intensity. I pray for needs; I’m like, “God, I need this for my kid adults.” I have something in mind: I’ve seen You do this for other people. You can do this for him. I know you can.” We’re having it out, and I think that’s okay.

Ann (00:44:15):

Me too; I do that a lot. He wants that relationship. If He’s walking with me, I’m talking about it. That’s what He’s saying: “I want to talk and walk with you all the time.”

Brant (00:44:27):

I feel like the prison example was a great example of that. These people are at a point—and the fact that even I, and I’m not the guy who senses God’s presence easily, or I don’t use those words very much; I’m kind of a robot—even I, in that prison, I’m like, “Okay, there’s something—

Dave (00:44:51):

Really?

Brant (00:44:51):

Yeah;—”God’s here with these guys; it’s the desperation.”

Dave (00:44:58):

I tell you what: when you’re in a community—and people are desperate, and they’re passionate about the answer to their desperation—the unchurched guy is drawn to that. It’s not the polish he’s drawn to; he’s drawn to the passion.

Brant (00:45:12):

Totally.

Dave (00:45:13):

He’s drawn to: “What do you have? Why are you excited about this? I want to know this like you do.” You know what I’m saying?

Brant (00:45:22):

There’s a Spurgeon quote—I’m not going to get it exactly right—it’s: “Set yourself on fire, and people will come from miles around to watch you burn.”

Ann (00:45:29):

“…watch you burn.” I love that quote!

Brant (00:45:31):

Yeah, there really is something to that. There’s something so compelling when you see it; and then, you wish it didn’t take those kind of straits to get us to be that passionate about how we’ve been forgiven, how good that is. I kind of want to live in that each day; I think it’s doable. I think you learn more and more.

Dave (00:45:55):

If we could only get as excited about Jesus as we do our favorite team’s touchdown.

Brant (00:46:02):

You know what? I think we can.

Dave: I know.

Brant: Our identity is wrapped up with our team. As our identity gets wrapped up with being a follower of Jesus, actually, you do get more excited about it.

Dave (00:46:12):

Yeah.

Ann (00:46:13):

Let me ask you—because I’m still picturing these guys talk about feeling unworthy—and feeling like, “I don’t deserve freedom; I don’t deserve anything.” I know there’s listeners—I used to feel like that: “I’m so unworthy”; because of what had happened to me,—and I’m sure they have felt it, both: “…what had happened to me,” and “What I had done to others,”—there’s this probably shame and unworthiness. As I’m thinking of our listeners, who they’re imprisoned; but they’re home. They’re not in a prison; they’re imprisoned. What would you say to them? Would you say the same things?

Brant (00:46:48):

You’ve got the image of God stamped on you; and apparently, that’s really important. It really is: His value for us is incalculable. What I don’t want to do—as somebody who struggles with the same thing or has struggled—what I don’t want to do is override God’s opinion with mine. I want His opinion to matter more.

I can look at myself, and I have a feeling that I’m a failure; I can have a feeling that I’m unworthy. Okay, that’s a feeling—again, warning lights on a dashboard—that’s what feelings are. But I have to return to the truth: “The truth is that God is covering me in royal garments, and He wants to partner with me in life. I’m not going to say, ‘No,’ to that. I’m not going to let my opinion of me overwhelm that. So I’m going to speak truth to myself.”

Ann (00:47:41):

That’s good. What does that sound like?

Brant (00:47:45):

Well, it sounds like Lamentations as Jeremiah—who’s looking at everything being destroyed—and he can see it; his nation’s being destroyed. He says, “Yet, I call this to mind; and therefore, I have hope. Because of the Lord’s great love for us, we are not consumed. His mercies are new every morning. So whatever I’ve done, great is Your faithfulness, O Lord.” But he has to tell himself that.

David says, “Why are you so downcast, o my soul? Put your trust in God.” Or he says, “I’m afraid, so I’ll praise God again.” It’s like these are human emotions. Shame is a very human thing to feel, but I want to replace my perception with God’s reality. That does take us having a change, having a renewed mind. That does start with what I pay attention to. I need to be paying attention to things that are actually life-giving—and true things that I can, just like the Scripture I was just quoting—I can bring that to mind, to say, “Brant, you’re not a failure. You don’t need to be ashamed of yourself. His mercies are new every morning.”

Ann (00:48:50):

“You’ve been clothed in righteousness.”

Brant: Yes!

Dave (00:48:52):

In some ways, I remember in seminary, our president, Ron Jensen, talking about

Psalm 103: “Bless the Lord, O my soul.” You mentioned the song. Who did that song?— [singing]—Bless the Lord.

Audio Room (00:49:05):

Matt Redman.

Ann: Matt Redmond.

Dave (00:49:05):

Matt Redmond.

Brant (00:49:06):

Thank you.

Dave (00:49:07):

In some ways, what Ron was saying—I’ll never forget this; this is 40-some years ago—he says, “Sometimes, I get in the shower in the morning; and I don’t want to bless the Lord. My feelings are just dead; they’re not passionate. And you know what I do?”

Brant (00:49:21):

—doing.

Dave (00:49:21):

[Singing] “Bless the Lord, o my soul. Come on soul! Bless the Lord.”

Brant: Right.

Dave: Brandon Lake’s Gratitude worship song is another song [singing]: “Come on my soul; don’t you get shy on me.” That’s a Psalm. He’s like, “Come on soul; let’s go!”—I don’t feel it; it doesn’t matter.

Brant (00:49:38):

“It doesn’t matter; do it anyway.”

Dave (00:49:39):

“We’re going to bless the Lord right now. He’s amazing! He’s done great things. I’m going to bless the Lord.”

Brant (00:49:43):

We know this from psychology too: your feelings follow from your behavior so often. You can worship your way into feeling warm feelings.

Dave (00:49:53):

Truth your way in.

Brant (00:49:55):

Right; right. You really do; it changes. You do something nice for somebody; you love them more.

Ann: It’s true!

Brant: They’ll feel something, so that’s just a genius way. Again, it it’s laid out in Scripture that way: “Why are you so downcast?” and “You praise God,”—not because God needs it: He’s feeling lonely today; He’s feeling down in the dumps; tell Him He’s great—that’s not why; it’s for you, so that you don’t have to be nervous.

Ann: It’s a reminder.

Dave (00:50:17):

Get your soul where the truth is.

Alright; we got a question from the peanut gallery—our producer, Jim Mitchell; our audio engineer, Bruce Goff—they’re sitting in there. I have a feeling, because they texted me, that they want to ask you a question about something.

Jim (00:50:34):

Just dying to ask a question; this happens every time you come, Brant. You get this room in here all worked up. You say provocative things. We mean it as a compliment.

To follow up on the earlier part of the conversation, where you were talking about the way of Jesus being easier. I’m not thinking that’s what you mean. I’m not thinking “easy” is the right word. I think what you’re saying is: “It’s hard, but it’s better.” I want to just make sure I’m understanding, because I’ve not found following Jesus to necessarily be easy. I know there’s a lot of listeners and viewers who wouldn’t characterize their walk with Jesus as easy. And even the verse you quoted, Matthew 7:14, there are several translations that say: “How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life.” Speak to that listener, who has found it difficult; and yet, probably better.

Brant (00:51:33):

When it says narrow is the way—or “difficult”—if you go into the Greek, you’re going to see “narrow” again; it’s the same word. I find it very interesting that we have this orthodoxy that even influences how we translate the Bible. For example, there’s translations of the Bible: when Jesus says, “Don’t be angry,”—they insert/a scribe, maybe centuries later, inserted “unless for good reason.” That shows up in King James version and some other stuff. But now, a there’s an asterisk: “Actually, that’s not in the original.”

Dave (00:52:07):

So how would “Narrow is the gate” read?

Brant (00:52:09):

Well, it says—it doesn’t say “difficult”; it says “narrow,”—again.

Dave: Oh; “Narrow is the gate.”

Brant: You can do a—

Ann (00:52:15):

You got a bad translation, Jim!

Jim (00:52:17):

No; I mean, I hear that. But there’s some pretty smart guys on the ESV and the NET Bible. They’re taking the text seriously, and they’re translating it that way. They’re not just—

Brant (00:52:26):

Okay, here’s the other thing: I’m not saying either path is easy. I’m saying, “This is easier.” I absolutely believe that it is easier; I do believe it to be.

Jim (00:52:35):

This seems to be kind of a life message for you right now: that there are physiological benefits, and psychological and relational benefits to actually following Jesus, in the path of Jesus. He was gracious to call us into following Him. It’s not all bad news; it’s good news.

I’m just wondering, experientially—when people have found it difficult—you’re still saying, “But it’s good, and it’s actually better than what you would be experiencing if you weren’t following Jesus.”

Brant (00:53:04):

Yes; if you see it clearly, you will go for it; because it’s a great deal.

Dave (00:53:07):

Play it out in some areas. You already talked about forgiveness. It’s easier to forgive.

Brant (00:53:13):

—than live a life of unforgiveness.

Dave (00:53:13):

It’s more difficult to do, but it’s a lot worse not to.

Brant (00:53:17):

—at first; but then, actually, it gets easier over time as you grow.

Dave (00:53:21):

How about “resist sin.”

Brant (00:53:24):

Again, it gets easier as you go.

Dave (00:53:26):

Because people say, “No, that’s hard; I can’t!”

Brant (00:53:30):

At first, sure; sure. Timothy Jennings is a neuroscientist and a believer. I don’t know if you’ve interviewed him.

Dave (00:53:37):

No.

Brant (00:53:38):

He wrote a book called The God—I can’t remember—The God-Shaped Brain. He uses a great example. He was tempted to smoke cigarettes when he was in middle school. His mom told him not to; and then, he did. He got busted, and then he tried not to. Then, he stumbled and fell. Then, he’s like, “You know what? I don’t have a problem with that anymore. It would be weird if I called my mom every day to go, ‘I didn’t have a cigarette yesterday’”; because I’m a non-smoker. It’s not on my plate anymore—I’ve grown out of that—it’s not a thing.

That is very doable in life where it becomes an easier response because you have changed, as a person. It’s all about who you’re becoming. So with sin, you can go, “Yeah, it’s hard for me to not…”—if you’re caught up in something—it’s hard for me to not do that. But actually, if you change your schedule, and go through that narrow way, it becomes easier as the farther away you are from it. And then, living a life, without being a slave to that, is an easier way of life.

Ann (00:54:54):

That’s what I just wrote down: “Without Christ, you’re a slave to your desires.”

Brant (00:54:59):

You’re a slave to your desires; that is your flesh. So being freed from that is actually an easier way to live than being a slave. In fact, being a slave to your desires will make life pretty miserable.

Ann (00:55:08):

Exactly.

Brant (00:55:09):

So this is an easier way to live. You do have to deny yourself—so both ways can be hard—both guys had to build the house; but in life, it’s actually going to turn out to be an easier, lighter way. Even if there are difficulties, it’s easier than the alternatives.

Ann (00:55:25):

—because the storm is coming to both houses.

Brant (00:55:30):

Absolutely.

Ann: The rain falls on the just, and the unjust.

Brant: And destruction is coming.

Ann (00:55:32):

—for all of us.

Brant (00:55:32):

Well, destruction is coming for the wide way; that’s not easier.

Ann (00:55:36):

And hard things happen, no matter what’s going on; because through the adversity, God is shaping us, but He’s with us in it.

Dave (00:55:46):

My journey with alcohol—would match exactly what you said—my dad was an alcoholic; my mom was alcoholic. Before I was a believer, I’m going to every party and I’m drinking. And then, when I come to Christ, and I want to stop this. I’m not drinking to have a drink; I’m drinking to get drunk—that was why I drank—it wasn’t: “Have a glass of wine”; it was; “Have five.”

I thought, “Man, this is hard. I can’t go to a bar. If I go to a bar, I fall.” I did it a couple times; and I’m like, “I can’t go to a bar”; and so I never did; I stopped. I go to a party, and they’d hand me a beer; and I’m like—I felt it was hard—guess what? I go to a bar now; no problem.

Brant (00:56:28):

Yeah, you’re a different person.

Dave (00:56:29):

I’m a different person; there’s no desire. If somebody stuck a beer in hand, I say, “No thanks.”

Brant (00:56:31):

It’s just not a—but being an alcoholic is really hard.

Dave (00:56:35):

Yeah, yeah. It’s really destructive.

Brant (00:56:38):

Yeah.

Ann (00:56:38):

Being a slave to your desires is hard.

Brant (00:56:40):

Yeah, that is the alternative.

Ann (00:56:40):

Yeah.

Brant (00:56:41):

So again, there’s a cost of discipleship But even if you read The Cost of Discipleship by a Bonhoeffer, he allows that this is an easier way to live. The cost of non-discipleship is higher. So I guess that’s how I would put it. There’s a cost—the pearl costs something; the treasure in the field costs something—but if you see it, you’re like, “I want that,”—not because it’s going to make your life harder. The pearl merchant is not buying the thing that’s going to make his life worse.

Ann (00:57:10):

But he’ll be richer.

Brant (00:57:11):

It makes it richer and better; there are blessings that will flow from it. There’s innumerable examples; that’s a great example. But also just like being able to forgive people. Other people can’t; they’re stuck with it. Whatever happens in traffic now determines—

Ann (00:57:25):

—their mood for the day.

Brant (00:57:26):

—the day That takes a toll on your body. That’s a harder way to live.

So that would be my counter to that. I don’t know if it makes sense, but I actually think when Jesus is saying that His yoke is lighter and easier, that He actually means that. But it is narrow; it is narrow.

Jim (00:57:50):

I agree. Just not being afraid of death has physiological—I’m going to sleep better; my relationships are going to be better—I get it. I just worry a little bit about there is a narrow way and there is a cost. There were people that left because that saying is hard. The disciples even pushed back, and said, “What about us? We’ve left these things too.” And He says, “In the kingdom, you’ll receive a return.” They were feeling a valid hardship to discipleship.

I know your heart; I know what you’re saying all of it; not either/or. That’s what I was trying to interact with.

Brant (00:58:58):

When He sent the disciples out to share the good news, what was that?

Dave (00:59:07):

What do you mean?

Brant (00:59:08):

Well, Jesus sent His disciples out to share the good news. What were they saying?

Dave (00:59:11):

Oh; “The kingdom of God is at hand.”

Brant (00:59:15):

Yes; “It’s available; it’s open for business.” It’s going to make your life worse? Or you can step into the kingdom now, and it’s a rich and satisfying life that’s lighter.

Jim (00:59:27):

Thanks, Brant, for letting us interact with you around it. You got us thinking. It’s very provocative,—

Brant (00:59:32):

Good.

Jim (00:59:33):

—in a good way.

Brant (00:59:34):

I do like that. And it’s also good for me to hear your responses; I appreciate your judgments on it. It helps me to be a better communicator.

Jim (00:59:44):

So send your emails to Brant Hansen at FamilyLife.com.

Dave: —at FamilyLife.com; yeah.

Jim (00:59:49):

Exactly!

Brant: Get a quick apology.

Ann (00:59:55):

Hey, thanks for watching. If you liked this episode,—

Dave (00:59:58):

You better like it.

Ann (00:59:59):

—just hit that “Like” button.

Dave (01:00:00):

And we’d like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the “Subscribe”—

can’t say the word, “subscribe”—hit the “Subscribe” button. I don’t think I can say this

word!

Ann: I can subscribe.

Dave: Look at that! You say it so easily. “Subscribe”; there he goes!

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