How Should the Church Respond to Hurting People?

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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When Hurting People Come to Church

Guest:Shaunti Feldhahn and James Sells

Release Date:September 23, 2025

Jim (00:00:00):

Everybody that has interaction with anybody in the church needs to know how to sit with somebody else in pain.

Shaunti (00:00:06):

I am not going to have all the answers, but I can listen to you. All of us have been called to be a friend.

Dave (00:00:18):

Well, we have our friend Shaunti Feldhahn.

Ann (00:00:20):

I am so happy.

Dave (00:00:21):

—back in the studio.

Ann (00:00:22):

Why do I just smile when Shaunti’s in the room with me?

Dave (00:00:25):

I don’t know. She’s been talking about this for a month.

Ann (00:00:26):

That’s how I feel about you guys.

Dave (00:00:32):

Oh, what else are you going to say right now, Shaunti? You sort of have to.

Ann (00:00:32):

We do love you Shaunti, because not only are you a good friend, but you have really impacted us with all of your work.

Shaunti:

You’re so kind.

Ann:

And you have someone with you today.

Shaunti (00:00:42):

I do, I do, one of my favorite people in the world, but I’ll let you guys introduce Jim.

Dave (00:00:47):

Well, we don’t know as much about Jim as you do.

Shaunti (00:00:49):

Okay.

Dave (00:00:49):

Jim Sells is with us, and we just heard he’s like a; he’s on the—

Shaunti (00:00:54):

He’s a big deal.

Ann:

We have a big deal.

Dave (00:00:56):

He’s on Mount Rushmore in the—

Jim:

I owe a lot of people money, so that’s why they keep in relationship with me.

Dave:

Well, I don’t want you to tell us how big a deal you are. Shaunti, tell us.

Shaunti (00:01:06):

Yeah, so when—which I know we’ll explain—when we started talking about writing this book together, I was like, “Oh my gosh, is Dr. Jim Sells wanting to write a book with me?” I was fangirling.

Dave (00:01:21):

Did he reach out to you?

Shaunti (00:01:23):

We had been working on this project, which we’ll be explaining in a minute. We’ve been working on this project. He’s like, “I think that there’s an important book here for the Christian audience.” And he’s like, “How would you like to maybe work on that together?” I’m like, “Are you kidding?” Because Jim, Dr. Sells, sorry—

Jim (00:01:43):

Just Jim.

Dave:

Oh, we got to call him Doctor.

Jim:

No, please don’t.

Shaunti (00:01:45):

We don’t need to call him Dr. Sells.

Jim (00:01:46):

I just require my adult children to call me Dr. It just doesn’t—

Ann:

Oh, that’s good. Good idea.

Jim:

It doesn’t go very well at all.

Ann (00:01:52):

Are we going to call you Dr. yet?

Jim (00:01:53):

Yeah, almost, almost.

Shaunti (00:01:55):

Soon, very soon. Yes, but Jim is the head of the Charis Institute at Regent—co-head of the Charis Institute at Regent University, which is also where I’m getting my Ph.D. and a tenured professor and the head of The Church Cares Initiative, which we want to talk about today. And he has just been a long time thought leader in the academic space around psychology, marriage, family therapy, et cetera. Just one of the leading—he writes all the textbooks. I think I had three of your textbooks in my last couple classes.

Ann (00:02:32):

Do we need to get your autograph too?

Shaunti:

I think we do.

Ann:

This is kind of a big deal.

Dave (00:02:38):

He’s like in the NFL Hall of Fame in this area.

Shaunti (00:02:41):

He is academic wise.

Ann (00:02:42):

Alright, here’s where I’m going. First question, who are the people walking in our churches today based on your studies?

Dave (00:02:52):

Wow. You’re just going right there right now. I want to talk about Shaunti and her impact in our lives but okay, I guess we won’t go there now.

Ann (00:03:01):

Do you want to say that? Because that is a pretty big deal.

Dave (00:03:03):

No, I will say this about Shaunti because a lot of our viewers and listeners, and I hope you’re watching not just listening. Some of you are like, “You can watch this?” Yeah, on YouTube and you get to see this bald head, two bald heads today in the studio.

Shaunti:

Exactly.

Dave:

No, it’s really funny. Harvard trained researcher, and I love your books because they’re based on research. It isn’t just some guy’s opinion or even just scripture. Scripture is confirming what research says. So here’s what’s really funny. When For Women Only came out, right, I don’t know what year.

Shaunti (00:03:35):

It was—the original edition was back in 2004. Can you believe it’s been that long?

Dave (00:03:39):

That sounds right.

Ann:

Wow.

Shaunti (00:03:40):

Yeah.

Dave (00:03:41):

Yeah.

Ann (00:03:42):

That date’s about right.

Dave (00:03:43):

So somebody gave it to Ann. Ann didn’t even get it and said, “I just heard Shaunti on this show. You got to read this book.” Ann doesn’t, hasn’t read it yet. I see it laying on our kitchen hutch. I walk in the kitchen—

Shaunti (00:03:56):

For Women Only.

Dave (00:03:57):

For Women Only, understanding the private lives of your man or something like that, right? Yeah, subtitle. And I’m like, “What is this?” Ann’s like, “Yeah, I don’t know. Michelle said I should read it.” I’m like, “Oh, really?” So the next day I opened it up, I read the whole thing.

Shaunti (00:04:12):

Oh, that’s awesome.

Dave (00:04:12):

And I remember walking into the kitchen that night and I go, “You read this book now.” She’s like, “What?” “Read it now. This explains me.” I mean, it was so helpful.

Shaunti (00:04:23):

Oh, I’m so glad.

Dave (00:04:24):

For Men Only, For Women Only, For Parents Only, best thing I’ve ever read about teenage parenting, ever.

Shaunti (00:04:29):

Oh, thanks.

Dave (00:04:30):

We wrote a book on parenting. It’s a million times better than our book.

Ann (00:04:33):

I think your book was the beginning of a journey for us, Shaunti, that really saved us in a lot of ways.

Jim:

Wow.

Shaunti (00:04:40):

That’s a kind thing to say.

Ann (00:04:41):

The book that we just had released, How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want To Do is Yell at Him—

Shaunti (00:04:48):

Which is the best title ever by the way. Just so you know, when you asked me to endorse it, I’m like, “I can’t wait to read it.” Not just because I helped you get it to your publisher that day when you’re like, “Wait, we … our deadline.

Dave:

That’s right.

Shaunti:

—but because the title is amazing.

Ann (00:05:01):

But even your book impacted that writing because it was that beginning of a new journey of—

Shaunti (00:05:09):

Oh, I’m glad to hear that.

Dave:

Oh, totally

Ann (00:05:10):

—my words have to be spoken in a way that resonates with Dave and motivates him.

Shaunti (00:05:14):

Well, it’s not like you have to do anything differently. It’s just like, well, do you want a good relationship where you speak life into each other? Then yes.

Dave (00:05:22):

So all that to bring us back to, what was your question, Ann?

Ann (00:05:25):

My question was—

Dave:

I don’t even remember what she said.

Ann:

—based on your research—both of you have researched this—who is walking into the doors of our churches today?

Jim (00:05:34):

Yeah. People who don’t know anything about how Christianity works based on a Sunday school knowledge and growing up with a biblical culture back in their brains. They’re coming with pain and they’re showing up with, “Can someone here help me?”

Shaunti (00:05:59):

Even if they don’t look like it. Even if they don’t look like it.

Dave (00:06:01):

Yeah, they’re cleaned up—

Shaunti:

Even if they want the family, the Sunday best, white picket fence, whatever, but inside there’s an immense amount of—

Dave (00:06:10):

Well, I mean as a pastor, I’ve always known that, but is it uniquely different today than 50 years ago?

Jim (00:06:14):

I think there is many differences, and Shaunti has heard this story. It’s really how The Church Cares Initiative got launched. I’m driving in Anderson County, South Carolina, dropped my son off at Clemson for a soccer training and I got the day, and I got a tank of gas. So I’m just driving around and I’m driving down this rural highway past a Baptist church. It looks like every other Baptist church in the country and out in the farmlands of America—brick, white steeple, seats 150 people. We all see it. On the marquee no longer says services at 9:30—or Sunday school at 9:30, worship service at 11, prayer meeting Wednesday night at 7.

Shaunti:

It doesn’t say that.

Jim:

It doesn’t say that. It says family council available.

Jim (00:07:15):

I stop my truck, and I just look at it for a few minutes because out in the middle of rural America with cars zipping by on this rural highway, that church, somebody in that church said, “What’s the best way we can invite people to our church? It’s no longer potluck and then softball game to beat the Methodists.” It was none of that choir practice 6:00 on Thursday. It’s your family hurts, come here. And I have no idea how trained they were at any of those things, but somebody said that’s the message for this county, this community, this church.

Shaunti (00:08:03):

And that’s the reality all over the country, really all over the world is we, for the last couple of years, Jim and I have been doing research on this and really interviewing. We’ve interviewed and surveyed more than 2000 pastors of all streams of the church pastors, church leaders, some clinicians in order to just say, what’s going on out there? What are you seeing? And right now what we’re seeing is that the folks walking into the average church—I mean some things may be going great in their lives, but there are areas of pain that everybody carries. And today, just as just an example, before the pandemic and mental health issues, emotional health issues were a big issue. They’ve been issues forever. But as an example, when you look at the government statistics and what percentage of people have an anxiety disorder are diagnosed before the pandemic, the year before, the number was 8.1 percent.

Dave (00:09:06):

Of what?

Shaunti (00:09:07):

Of people in the country were diagnosed with an anxiety disorder.

Dave:

8.1.

Shaunti:

8.1. If you look at this, and it was like it had had it within the last three months or something. I can’t remember what the parameters were but dealing with it currently in a significant way.

Jim:

Like right now.

Shaunti:

And during the pandemic, that number went to 41percent.

Ann (00:09:29):

Wow.

Shaunti (00:09:30):

So apples to apples, same data set. And today it’s 28.7.

Ann (00:09:35):

So it’s still high.

Shaunti (00:09:36):

It’s still very, very high. And unfortunately what has happened in that time and for years is you have so many more people coming into the pastor, coming into the care team, “Can you help me?” And the reality is everybody has a heart to want to help one another, want to help these folks who are dealing with whatever marriage issues, trauma, whatever the thing is. And yet there’s only so many pastors. There’s only so many clinicians that you can refer somebody to.

Dave (00:10:10):

And you know I was a pastor. I am a pastor.

Shaunti (00:10:13):

You are a pastor.

Dave (00:10:14):

We’re not trained.

Ann (00:10:16):

Well, I can just say—

Dave (00:10:17):

We feel ill-equipped to deal with a significant mental health crisis.

Ann (00:10:21):

But Dave, we—

Dave (00:10:21):

We’re going to refer out.

Ann (00:10:22):

At least we went to seminary, and we had some classes on what to do. But I was just thinking as I was reading through your book, I recalled the teenage girl that called me and said, “I’m cutting. It’s life-threatening now.” And she’s so riddled with depression. I have another mom call me and say, “My daughter just told me she’s gay. Can you meet with her?” I had another woman as we were recording in here, leave me a message and say, “I’m taking my life. By the time you hear this, I’ll be gone.”

Dave (00:10:51):

We had to stop the recording, and Ann had to call professionals, “Get the police over there now.”

Ann (00:10:56):

But I think you’re right. This is going on. It’s like a silent epidemic and we don’t know what to do with it even as church leaders. And so you guys are passionate about that too.

Jim (00:11:09):

And that epidemic, because someone’s going to come to our church, they’re not churched. All they have is this thing in front of me is like a big emotional cloud of static. I can’t see through it.

Ann (00:11:33):

I can’t get around it.

Jim (00:11:35):

And I don’t know what to do with it. Can somebody here help me? But let’s switch gears a little bit because that tends to label that few, that 25 percent and then the rest of us are just healthy folks. Not quite true.

Dave (00:11:56):

Not quite.

Ann:

Why are we all laughing?

Shaunti:

Yes, exactly.

Jim (00:11:58):

So probably the biggest nut we haven’t cracked yet is how people in the church who know they have pain but don’t know how to access help within the church to address their pain. So we have a lot of people who are willing to be helpers, but fewer of them are recognizing, but I need help at the same time.

Ann (00:12:24):

I need answers.

Shaunti:

And that you could do both to some degree,

Jim (00:12:27):

Yes, I can be a helper and a helpee simultaneously.

Shaunti (00:12:31):

That people in the church, that us, like us, all of us, the body of Christ—

Ann:

—all of our listeners.

Shaunti:

—can be an answer to this.

(00:12:38):

Yes.

(00:12:39):

It is telling. One of the interviews I did was with, and I’ll keep him anonymous. He’s like, “Please keep me anonymous,” I’m sure. But one of the interviews was with one of the folks we’d actually, Jeff and I, my husband and I had spoken at their church a number of years ago, had done a marriage event. And so we had known them. He was the care pastor basically. And so I said, “Hey, can I interview—this is early on—can I interview you? We’re trying to get a handle on what the experience is around mental health in the church today. What is it that you see as a pastor?” And so I said, “When someone comes down to get prayer on Sunday morning after the service, how do you refer them to different groups in the church?”

He’s like, “Well, if it’s youth, they’ll go to pastor so and so. If it’s marriage, they’ll be referred to me.” And I said, “Okay, so imagine that somebody just has really significant depression or they have had trauma in their background, and they don’t know what to do or whatever, what’s the process?” And he literally pushed back from the table—we were on Zoom—and he goes like this, and he pushes back and he’s like, “I kind of feel like you just told me, ‘Hey pastor, there’s somebody at the altar who’s having a heart attack. Here’s a scalpel.’”

(00:13:58):

“’Go do something.’” I don’t—like you said, I’m not trained. I don’t know.

Ann (00:14:03):

We don’t know what to do.

Shaunti (00:14:04):

And imagine, and what we want people to imagine, is today those pastors, and the number is 88 percent of the pastors on our survey said they agreed or sort of agreed that the top job of the church when it’s a mental health issue is to refer out to a professional, somebody who’s trained, somebody who does have that specialty,

(00:14:30):

And that’s great. Jim is a clinical psychologist. He’s trained Christian psychologists for many decades now and so that’s awesome. However, it’s not right now. There just aren’t enough clinicians. There aren’t enough pastors to be able to help. And so imagine that that person down front who’s dealing with trauma that you could say, “You know what? Maybe we’ll talk with you. We’re going to try to get you into a clinician if you need that.” But in the meantime, “Oh, I’m so sorry you were sexually abused as a child and it’s impacting you. We have a team of lay listeners who are able to come alongside, and I happen to know that Bonnie, that is part of her history, and she loves helping other women walk through that. And she’s been trained in listening. So we’re going to connect you with her even while you’re waiting perhaps to see a clinician.” And it’s like imagine the load that that would take off of the average pastor if there were teams of Bonnies and Bobs that could just walk alongside these people and have the ability to listen.

Dave (00:15:39):

So how do we get there?

Ann (00:15:40):

And let me add too, like that Bonnie, if this woman goes to Bonnie who’s walked through it and she’s seeing some healing, that will light her on fire because she will feel like God can use me and my brokenness and my story to walk alongside this dear woman and just hear and listen, that changes her life as well. What were you going to say, Dave?

Dave (00:16:03):

Oh, no, I was going to say, how we get there? Years ago, I mean we started our church in 1990, the first year starting our church, at a service probably three months in. I’m one of the founders, and I didn’t tell my co-founder I was going to do this, but in my sermon—I don’t remember what text I was teaching, but it fit—I share a story of how I had struggled with porn and the journey about it. I remember I walk off the stage and Steve, my co-founder, literally before I stepped down the stairs, he looks at me—and I thought I could be in trouble. Especially then, nobody ever, especially a pastor, 1990—

Shaunti (00:16:41):

People weren’t talking about that.

Dave (00:16:41):

—they were struggling, nobody talked about it. So I’m going to talk about it.

Ann (00:16:45):

Were you finding victory at that point?

Dave (00:16:46):

Yeah, I was in victory, but I was like, I got to be honest, this was a struggle, and it was a struggle in our marriage, and I took enough time to say, “This is real.” I remember Steve’s looking up at me, I’m coming downstairs. I’m like, it could be the last day of us doing this church together. And I’ll never forget, he looks right at me, and he goes, “You just changed this church.” I go, “Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing?” He goes, “This will never be a church where people come and hide their secrets. This is going to be a different place.” And it was. Well, here’s what is really interesting, sort of funny, I started having guys set up appointments to come and meet with me and everyone—

Shaunti (00:17:25):

And wanting to, can you talk to me about this? Can you talk to me about this?

Dave (00:17:27):

I’m saying this because of what you just said. Bonnie was sort of me. I had a similar struggle to a lot of the men in our church who had never talked to anybody, and now they heard their pastor say something.

So literally my assistant, Debbie—still our assistant—she could tell you, I start getting all these calls. They want to meet with Dave. What about? Could we just have an hour? So they’d come in and they’d him hum around, and then I said, “Hey, are you struggling with ?” “Yeah, I’ve never told anybody.” We talked, right? What’s really funny is this happened 10 or 15 times. Finally our drummer comes in and we’re new. So I’m in the band, so I know Bruce pretty well, and Bruce comes in and he said, and he’s not bringing this up. And finally after literally 10 minutes, I go, “Bruce, I know why you’re here.” He goes, “Yeah, really?” I go, “Yeah.” He goes, “Why am I here?” I go, “You’re struggling with porn. I’ve talked to 20 guys. We can talk about it.” He goes,

(00:18:21):

“I’m not struggling with porn at all.” I go, “Why are you here?” He goes, “I just gave my life to Christ. I thought you could help me grow.” I was like, “Finally.” But again, it’s funny now, but when I think about it, it’s like nobody had somebody in the church that they could journey like the Bonnie’s. So how do we get to that? I mean, again, I don’t want to get there now. We got to talk about the problem.

Shaunti:

That’s why we wrote the book.

Jim:

Exactly. That’s our topic.

Dave:

I mean, the whole book is a strategy that I know because I’m still in church world, there aren’t very many churches doing this. Mega, small, you name it, they’re not doing it. well.

Jim (00:18:59):

They’re popping up all over the place.

Shaunti (00:19:00):

They are. It’s just that they don’t know each other and they don’t know that this is a model that works, and every church handles it differently. That’s the cool thing. The body of Christ is so diverse.

Jim (00:19:10):

That was probably one of the wonderful things we found in going to talk to pastors and interview and survey thousands—

Shaunti (00:19:20):

More than 2000, yeah.

Jim (00:19:21):

—is how many things are occurring here, here, here, here, here, here. Big church, small church, black church, Latino church, white church, Presbyterian church, charismatic church, they’re all doing different things usually that reflect their identity,

Jim (00:19:36):

reflect their theology, a whole bunch of things. So we tried to take some best practices, put them in the book and take the survey content, distill it down to just some principled thought about how you can go about doing it. And also link churches with not-for-profits and ministries that are ongoing right now, that are doing really, really cool things. And then actually become one of those organizations that can help churches do it. I help churches put it all together.

Shaunti (00:20:12):

Because one of the things that we see, because we are fans of the pastors, we’re fans of the pastors and their wives, the co-pastor couple,

(00:20:23):

the care pastor, the youth pastor who were just, they care so much and they’re just right now trying to survive.

Ann (00:20:31):

They’re overwhelmed.

Shaunti (00:20:31):

Overwhelmed and really truly feeling at least the subset—and again, we had a pretty good base for the survey. We were pretty strict about, I am going to talk to every conceivable type of church that I could put into the survey—Catholic, Protestant, the whole thing. But one of the things that was standard across the vast majority of these is that every one of them has the heart to try to help, they don’t know what to do, and they know that their counselors are full.

We found one of the things that was really hard when the data came back, I showed Jim the graph, like I could not wait to see the data. And this one graph just hit me between the eyes, and it said, when you refer somebody out, what percentage of them, how long does it take them to see somebody? Is it a week? Is it five weeks? Is it two months? What is it? And 50 percent of the people taking the survey didn’t know.

Jim (00:21:39):

No idea.

Shaunti (00:21:39):

Had no idea, which meant I’m referring out and that’s the end of my— and so we don’t recognize that without intending to because we’ve professionalized human care so much—which again, there’s nothing wrong with that, but we’ve professionalized it so much, we don’t realize that, without intending to, we’ve created a funnel out of the church for people who are hurting.

Dave (00:22:07):

I mean, even right now in my church, if somebody comes up and I refer them, I tell them it’ll be a month to two months before you’ll get an appointment. I am now referring most people to Deborah Fileta online because she got a whole team.

Shaunti:

Telehealth, exactly.

Dave:

Go to her website. You’ll probably talk to somebody in the next couple of days.

Ann (00:22:25):

It can still take some time.

Shaunti (00:22:26):

But it can—there was a secret shopper study that was done of counseling clinics, telehealth options, whatever, people, hundreds and hundreds of clinics all over the country that offer telehealth. That’s been the thing that everybody’s going to now because they can’t get in to see a counselor. And they found that the telehealth clinics were so overwhelmed that 20 percent of these secret shoppers didn’t even get a call back.

Ann (00:22:55):

20 percent

Shaunti (00:22:56):

20 percent. One out of every five people, who is desperate and hurting, and they called three times. That was their process, and they couldn’t even get a phone call back.

Ann (00:23:06):

So you guys are saying, “Oh no, it’s not that we need more trained psychologists or therapists.”

Shaunti (00:23:12):

Which would be great too.

Ann (00:23:14):

But you’re saying, “No, we don’t necessarily want them to leave and never come back to our church.”

Dave (00:23:19):

We need to equip the body.

Shaunti (00:23:20):

We need to equip the body.

Jim (00:23:22):

We’re seeing all of those things and maybe a few things more. I’m not seeking to undermine the mental health profession.

Ann (00:23:31):

You’re advocating.

Jim (00:23:32):

I train people to do this profession, and I’d like to continue in that line of work. It’s been very good to me and my family. But we’ve used the phrase “We don’t refer out. We refer with,” meaning the role of the church is to be a continual relationship with everybody that shows up. And you might need professional care. You might need medication. You might need an inpatient detoxification for addiction of substances. You might need some really complicated medical intervention. And you need the church. You need people showing up and being with you all the time.

Ann (00:24:18):

That’s discipleship.

Jim (00:24:19):

Yes.

Ann (00:24:20):

It makes you teary.

Jim (00:24:21):

It does.

Ann (00:24:21):

Because?

Jim (00:24:25):

I think we have—there’s me as a psychologist shifting from my emotion side to my thinking side to control that—but I feel sad. Because I think much of what the church is supposed to do really, really well, we have, out of our own fear, jettisoned it to Jim the professional rather than Jim the discipler. And that kind of splits down the middle of me with Jim the psychologist and Jim the pastor’s son who grew up in the church and loves deep, deep care of people.

Shaunti (00:25:10):

Tell them about your grandmother.

Jim (00:25:12):

Yeah, I’d say the best counselor I ever saw was my grandmother, Marie Catherine, who had an eighth-grade education and a bible and a coffee pot and a kitchen table in a neighborhood in the south side of Chicago in which people would show up at her door. Far more effective than I’ll ever be in my whole life, and that was pre-psychology, pre-profession. She knew how to care for people.

Ann (00:25:46):

I’m just listening to that, Jim, thinking of our listeners thinking, “What does this have to do with me?”

Ann (00:25:51):

That right there. We are called as God’s children to open our homes to disciple. And I think we feel so overwhelmed and underequipped we don’t know how to do that. But to open a door to say,

Ann (00:26:04):

“Come to my house. Let’s just have a cup of coffee.”

Shaunti (00:26:06):

And to say, you don’t have to know the answers to be able to say okay. I was talking to Jim this morning about the fact that I’m about to get my Ph.D. in counseling and psychological studies.

Dave:

Quit bragging, Shaunti.

(00:26:19):

Yes, I know. Yeah, that’s going to be weird. Anyway, just stop because it’s just a weird thing. Anyway, but it’s a non-licensure Ph.D. It’s leadership, it’s research. But it is partly, I chose that route because I am not a counselor. I’m studying counseling and psychology, but I’m not necessarily—I don’t have clients. I study and talk to a lot of people. But one of the things that everybody has to reckon with is that all of us have been called to be a friend and that I don’t have to have all the answers. I am not going to have all the answers, but I can listen to you.

Ann(00:27:11):

And that just alone.

Shaunti:

That alone is huge. And so that’s the vision that we want. Part of the point behind this book and part behind the point behind The Church Cares Initiative that Jim leads is to help the church catch that vision and go, it does not matter what you’re structured like. You can have all these, the different DNA of your church, different streams of the church, and yet you are filled with people who care. And those people right now have felt for years like, “Okay, if somebody’s hurting in my small group, let me refer them to the pastor.” The pastor talks to them a couple times, refers them to a counselor, which may still be the need, but “Oh, I can be trained. I can read a book on listening, or I can do The Church Cares listening training.” Or it’s just an hour, a few hours. It’s just so that I go, “Oh, okay, you know what? As I’m listening to this person, my emotions are getting activated and I need to make sure that I ask this question and I’ve learned enough that I can do that.” As opposed to, “Oh my gosh, I don’t know what the answers are.”

(00:28:32):

And you don’t need to.

Dave (00:28:33):

What percentage—you guys are the pros at this—would you say—maybe there’s not an answer. I don’t know—what percentage of people that come in and want to talk to somebody or walk up to somebody at the end of a service or want a counselor or a pastor to meet with, what percentage of them really don’t need a pastor or a trained professional? They just need a good friend. Somebody that will listen and care and maybe walk with them through this journey.

Shaunti (00:29:00):

I am going to answer from the perspective of all the pastors and clinicians I’ve talked to.

Jim (00:29:05):

Have at it.

Shaunti (00:29:05):

So one of the things that there was, for example, this is a pretty average answer. One of the churches we talked to had been one that had built a lay listening program like this. And they said that of the people who came in the door, 80 percent of them only needed to talk to somebody two or three times.

Ann:

Wow.

Dave (00:29:28):

80 percent.

Shaunti (00:29:29):

80 percent. I don’t know what you would say.

Dave (00:29:31):

So not a trained professional counselor, therapist who recommend drugs and help you. Now it’s going to be—

Shaunti (00:29:36):

What would you say? Because you’re the one who gets the referrals.

Dave (00:29:41):

You’ve already got your doctorate. She doesn’t have hers yet.

Shaunti (00:29:44):

I don’t yet. I don’t.

Dave (00:29:45):

We’re going to listen to you.

Shaunti:

I don’t know what I’m doing.

Jim:

She’s defended her dissertation. So it’s just waiting to mop up the floor. It’s all done.

Now, less than 10 percent have serious mental illness.

Dave (00:29:59):

Less than 10.

Jim (00:30:01):

Yes, a good 25, 30 percent have significant life pain, but they’re fully functional. This is our triangle in the book. So that gives, that’s let’s say 10 and 30, that’s 40percent. That leaves 60 of us. 60percent of us just hurt around challenges. There’s no one I’ve ever met who’s gotten a pass and life was easy. It doesn’t matter your economics. It doesn’t matter your race. It doesn’t matter your intelligence, your life pedigree, everybody’s life is hard. And some people’s life has been much more challenging than others. But nobody skates through unhindered by the challenges that are facing them. Everybody struggles.

Ann (00:30:58):

No one has evaded the fall of mankind.

Jim (00:31:00):

Nobody does.

Shaunti (00:31:00):

There you go. That’s a great way of putting it.

Jim (00:31:02):

Exactly. We can share our common depravity and the effects of that common depravity on the way that we’ve lived our lives.

Dave (00:31:11):

Yeah.

Jim (00:31:12):

Now, the Surgeon General put out a study in 2023 called The Epidemic of Isolation and Loneliness and considers our social isolation emerging in North American, United States culture to be more serious, more detrimental than a two pack a day cigarette habit—

Ann (00:31:40):

Whoa.

Jim (00:31:42):

—in terms of the effects it has on our wellbeing and our life and considers it among the most serious health epidemics facing America. We are disconnected.

Ann (00:31:57):

We need a big billboard that says, “Come to church; get more healthy.”

Jim (00:32:01):

Yeah.

Shaunti:

Yes, exactly.

Ann (00:32:02):

Because of relationship.

Shaunti:

Can you be our marketing director? That that was awesome.

Ann:

Yes, Dave would be much better at that than I am.

Dave (00:32:09):

Well, isn’t it—I mean, when I’m hearing this, and again, I read your book. I mean, here’s the title by the way, When Hurting People Come to Church: How People of Faith Can Help Solve the Mental Health Crisis. Those are strong words, help solve.

Shaunti:

And it’s true.

Dave:

I mean, I’m hearing you, and even as I read it, I’m thinking you’re saying the church is a army that’s already formed that could help solve this if they just knew they could be somewhat equipped, but mostly energized and sent—

Shaunti:

—and not afraid of that.

Dave:

They’re the answer.

Ann:

—to see their importance.

Dave:

And by the way, when I say church, I also say FamilyLife, any ministry that’s a community of believers has within themselves what this crisis needs.

Jim (00:32:51):

We have created in 21st Century America a mental health culture and language such that it used to be, “Oh, you’re going to therapy.” Now, it’s a bit of a badge of honor for a middle school kid to say, “I got to go see my therapist today.”

Ann (00:33:12):

And they’re like, “You’re not going to therapy?”

Jim (00:33:13):

Yeah. What’s wrong with you? Don’t your parents love you? So that’s a tremendous cultural shift.

Shaunti (00:33:22):

Which is great.

Ann:

Really good.

Jim (00:33:25):

And so now though, instead of hundreds of thousands of people saying, “Maybe I should go to therapy,” we have millions of people. It is impossible to train enough clinicians, nor is it possible to fund in terms of our healthcare dollars, the work of those clinicians.

Ann (00:33:46):

And you’re saying it’s not really totally necessary in what percentage? It’s not necessary.

Jim:

60 percent.

Shaunti:

Probably 60 percent at least of cases.

Ann:

And you know what you earned just by going to church? You’ve created a friend that you’re talking to and discipleship.

Jim (00:34:04):

Yes.

Shaunti (00:34:06):

And that is, and by the way, that word, the discipleship word is the word that I want everyone who is an involved church volunteer, pastor, ministry leader, to really hone in on, because in the survey we saw a very telling thing because the survey was anonymous, people could be very honest.

(00:34:26):

And there were so many pastors who said explicitly, my job as a pastor is not to handle mental health issues. That is for a professional. My job is discipleship.

Ann:

To make disciples.

Shaunti:

—and evangelism. And I am like, “It’s the same thing.” It is when you as a Bonnie or a Bob, you come alongside the person in need and you say, “I’m so sorry about that trauma from your childhood. I had that same thing. I’ll walk with you.” We’ll, whatever. And get you into a small group and “Hey, there’s the Women’s Bible study and there’s some friends there that you need to get to know.” That’s discipleship. That’s evangelism. I love what one of your colleagues had said that this is the discipleship, how did they put it?

Jim (00:35:15):

Evangelism and discipleship method of the 21st century because that’s the language people speak.

Ann (00:35:21):

Interesting.

Jim (00:35:22):

So if you want to think Billy Graham mastered technology, the mass media of his era coming out of World War II and the formation of television and took advantage of that. In our era, people speak therapy. That’s the language that they speak. And it’s the communication medium that everybody can resonate with.

Dave:

What do you mean?

Shaunti (00:35:52):

Have you watched TikTok lately?

Jim (00:35:54):

Yeah.

Dave (00:35:56):

What’s that called? Tick what?

Jim (00:35:59):

For better or for worse there is a priority of the self and the care/importance of me first. And so that makes people prompted to attend to—

Shaunti (00:36:25):

How am I feeling? What am I thinking?

Jim (00:36:26):

How am I feeling, what’s going on, et cetera.

Ann (00:36:28):

Well, that makes me think—go ahead.

Jim (00:36:30):

And just that is a powerful fast lane to I need to talk. I need help. Where are you going to go? Yeah, go ahead.

Ann (00:36:44):

It reminds me of Dennis Rainey, of how he has said for years that a good marriage is the best evangelistic tool that we have.

Shaunti (00:36:52):

For sure.

Ann (00:36:53):

But now I’m hearing this, I’m thinking therapy and mental health is the new evangelistic tool because people are hurting so desperately that they’re looking for answers and help.

Shaunti (00:37:09):

And that includes marriage issues, that includes everything, everything under the sun.

Ann (00:37:10):

And so we could almost leverage the need, the felt need of the world in saying, “This is the place that you can come and have that.” It’s Jesus basically, and relationships and discipleship.

Jim (00:37:24):

That’s that little church I drove by—family counsel here.

Ann (00:37:27):

Yes.

Jim (00:37:28):

Available.

Shaunti (00:37:30):

And we have to reckon, and the thing that I think those of us in the body of Christ have to reckon with is that, “Oh, wait, that’s me. That’s me. It’s not those other people.” Because I have felt for so long of like, “Oh my gosh, somebody’s hurting. Let me find somebody to help you.”

Ann:

I’m a helper.

Shaunti:

I’m the helper. And it’s what we have to reckon with. It’s like we are the church. There’s not another person. There may be a clinician who’s needed for many of these things, but regardless, I’m needed.

Ann (00:38:07):

Alright, let me just say this. We know life is full of challenges and families today need biblical truth more than ever. Isn’t that true?

Dave (00:38:15):

Oh, it’s definitely true.

Ann (00:38:16):

And as a FamilyLife partner, your monthly gift helps bring the truth into homes every single day through podcasts, events, and resources.

Dave (00:38:25):

So let’s make a lasting difference together. Seriously. Together we can make a difference. Become a partner today. Just go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the donate button.

Okay, let’s get back to the conversation. Why haven’t we gotten this in the church? Are you familiar with Larry Crab?

Shaunti (00:38:45):

Oh yeah.

Dave (00:38:46):

Back in the day.

Jim (00:38:46):

—the wonderful.

Dave (00:38:47):

I remember Silence of Adam, different books that he wrote back when I was just coming out of college, so late seventies, early eighties, probably—sorry to date myself—but his sort of passion was the church is full of lay counselors.

Dave (00:39:02):

You can do this. He wrote a book called Biblical Counseling or something late. It’s like you don’t need a therapist. The church can do most of the work we need done. Here we are 40, 50 years later and it’s still not really happening yet. What’s the—

Shaunti (00:39:15):

And I think it’s gotten worse to some degree.

Ann:

Me too.

Jim (00:39:18):

And one big difference in culture that Larry was writing in his era was a high resistance to the idea of I have need. Now, we’ve kind of broken through that.

Jim (00:39:37):

In terms of a cultural expectation, and now everybody recognizes there is a need.

Shaunti (00:39:44):

And there’s less stigma.

Jim (00:39:46):

The stigma pieces are gone.

Shaunti (00:39:48):

Well, and that’s one of the things that I was curious about. I’m sorry, I’m being a nerd and looking up our actual data, but 70 percent of pastors said that there’s no stigma in their church today around mental health.

Dave (00:40:05):

I agree.

Shaunti (00:40:05):

And about 20 percent were sort of on the fence of that. But 70 percent just point blank disagreed.

Shaunti (00:40:11):

And only 11 percent thought the stigma was still high.

Jim (00:40:16):

Think about what the culture has said in the past, say, 30 years since Larry Crabb. Think about the three most popular comedy series, the Seinfeld show.

Dave:

I was going to say, Seinfeld.

Jim:

Cheers and Friends.

Dave (00:40:33):

Friends, and guess what they’re doing? I know where you’re going.

Jim (00:40:34):

All three have completely different storylines, completely different context, but everybody wishes to be Norm, walking into a bar and saying,

Ann:

“Norm!”

Jim:

“Norm.” I haven’t been in too many bars, but I’ve been in a few and I have never felt welcomed like Norm is welcomed. Everybody wants to be welcomed. Everybody wants to be Kramer, who can just slide into Jerry’s apartment without knocking. This is not my home, but this is my home. I belong here.

Dave (00:41:13):

And if you think about what they talked about at that bar or in Jerry’s apartment, they helped each other.

Jim (00:41:19):

Yeah.

Dave (00:41:19):

They talked about life issues and problems, and they had a friend to bounce them off of.

Shaunti (00:41:23):

And we do that in the church. That’s the thing I don’t want pastors to hear us bashing you. No, I’m so grateful for the work of the pastors building that community, building that body of Christ in their church. It’s just the church, us not just the pastor, we have gotten more and more and more of this idea that part of things is not our job, that we have to in order to not do damage, I would be doing the wrong thing if I walked alongside somebody who had these issues. And that the right thing is always to refer out. And what we’re saying is absolutely, sometimes the right thing is to refer out like your lady who said, “By the time you read this, I’ll be gone.” Oh my goodness, call the police right.

Ann:

She needs to be hospitalized.

Shaunti:

She needs to be hospitalized. Yeah, absolutely. And yet what happens to her husband while she’s hospitalized? He needs somebody to walk alongside. When she comes out of the hospital, it’s not just, “Can I bring you a casserole?” It’s “Can I bring you a casserole?” and just, “How are you doing?” and being okay that you don’t have all the answers and being okay that you’re just listening and you’re being a friend. And that’s fine that you don’t need to have the training; that you can just be that listening ear.

Jim (00:42:48):

I love Ann, how you mentioned the power of a really good marriage. I love sitting with the angriest couples you can imagine.

Ann (00:43:01):

You love it.

Jim (00:43:02):

Oh, give me that; give me those people.

Ann (00:43:04):

What?

Shaunti:

That is his gifting.

Jim (00:43:08):

People who don’t throw chairs, but who wish they could.

Ann (00:43:10):

Yeah.

Jim (00:43:13):

And you can tell my personality. It’s not exactly—I’m not a dominator, but I love those people that are just anchor out folks or they’re hopeless or we’ve tried everything, and we can’t do it.

Ann (00:43:30):

These are your favorites.

Jim (00:43:31):

These are my favorites. Please send me those. As a professional psychologist, yeah, I should see those folks.

Shaunti (00:43:39):

Because you’re skilled in that. You’re trained in that.

Jim (00:43:40):

I know how to work with them, but I often ask—

Shaunti (00:43:47):

Yeah.

Jim (00:43:50):

I ask all of my couples, how many good marriages do you know? Who’s in your life that is good at this? —that you can have dinner with once a quarter? Just—and usually the mean answer is zero.

Ann (00:44:09):

Really?

Jim (00:44:10):

Oh, nobody.

Jim (00:44:13):

They can’t find the non-formal relational—we have friends that are doing it well and we can copy them.

Shaunti (00:44:25):

And you’re kind of like, “No wonder you’re in trouble.”

Jim (00:44:27):

Yeah.

Shaunti (00:44:28):

Because you don’t have those people.

Ann:

You have no one.

Jim (00:44:31):

There’s no vision even for what a healthy relationship looks like, because everyone they look at is bent and so, “Well, gee, we’re just as bent as they are.”

Ann (00:44:43):

There’s no hope.

Jim (00:44:43):

Yeah, exactly.

Shaunti (00:44:45):

And so having, especially the community of the church where statistically truly the church is filled with people with good marriages. I know that that sounds funny because we’ve heard the opposite. It’s true.

Jim:

It’s true.

Shaunti:

Yeah. There are plenty of people in the church, not with perfect marriages, but with good marriages who could just befriend another couple and walk alongside.

Jim (00:45:07):

That makes them a good marriage because they’re not perfect. And that mentor capacity of being able to be with people, be with someone who is not depressed to the degree that they can’t get out of bed but have been touched by melancholy or they know what it’s like to carry fear in their stomach all day long, and yet they still have hope. They still are graciously dependent on Jesus to guide their life and provide for everything that is in front of them.

Ann (00:45:49):

I’m thinking of our incredible listeners who love Jesus but also may feel like “My kids are gone. I feel like there’s not much purpose. I don’t know what I’m supposed to be doing.” This is for you.

Shaunti (00:45:59):

This is totally for you.

Ann (00:46:01):

Even if you just are married and you guys are struggling along, like, “Man, I wish we could have more of an impact.” This is for you.

Dave (00:46:08):

But—d

Ann (00:46:09):

Just even have a dinner. Invite somebody to dinner.

Dave (00:46:11):

Yeah, I was just going to say, but on their behalf, they’re thinking probably this, “But I don’t know how. I don’t know what to do. I do need some training, don’t I. Are you saying just be a friend?”

Shaunti (00:46:22):

This is why we wrote the book.

Jim (00:46:25):

And built out The Church Cares Initiative, which is like, here are the videos, here’s the manual, here’s the steps—

Shaunti (00:46:32):

Here’s the kit for every church.

Jim (00:46:33):

The kit that has all the resources. Here’s the attorney that wrote the “How not to get sued as a church.”

Shaunti (00:46:40):

Seriously. No, all of the above.

Dave (00:46:42):

That’s a big deal. That’s one of the reasons, as a pastor, I would often refer because I have that fear in the back of my mind. I’m not particularly skilled with the crisis trauma situation. If I handle this wrong—

Shaunti (00:46:55):

Okay, here’s a little bit of free consulting for all the pastors out there.

Jim (00:47:00):

It’s not free. She’s going to send you a bill.

Shaunti (00:47:03):

No, because one of the things that our legal experts said, which was really helpful is—and this is something that a lot of pastors haven’t even thought of—is that if you put in the bylaws of the church that we are a place that does care and this is part of religious discipleship, not therapy, and everybody participates voluntarily. And that’s important for people. If you’re going to do an official lay counseling thing or something, everybody needs to say, “Yeah, sign a ‘Absolutely. I’m doing this voluntarily.’” Then of course, in today’s environment, it doesn’t prevent somebody bringing a lawsuit, whatever, but those are very rare. And that usually will, well, not usually. It really should protect the church. And a lot of pastors just don’t know. Add a line or two to your bylaws. That’s it.

Dave:

Yeah, that’s good.

Jim (00:47:56):

Do your job. And your job is to care for people who are hurt and recognize in appropriate context, we’ll refer out to medical, we will refer out to licensed professional clinicians, but even with those that we refer out to, we are still responsible for the care of the community that this church exists in. That’s why churches have a not-for-profit status and exist in the community to render care to everyone who’s there.

Ann (00:48:25):

And you have all the material available for churches to do this.

Shaunti (00:48:30):

We do. We’ve spent the last couple of years not just talking to churches, but also what do they need. And so literally, if you’re listening to this and you are the Bonnie or the Bob, you’re like, “I feel like I’m the person everybody always comes to. I could start something like this at the church.” God bless you. Don’t put it on the pastor. Go to the pastor and say, “I want to help you.” Not, “Hey pastor, you need to do this,” but “I want to do this.” Get the kit. It tells you everything that you need to do, and then you adopt it for your church, your mission, your DNA, your style.

Dave (00:49:07):

Okay, let me just add this. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com right now, show notes, click on the link. We’ll have the kit there that you can buy.

Shaunti (00:49:15):

It’s not buy; it’s free.

Jim:

It’s free.

Dave (00:49:18):

It’s free. You can get it for free. You just tripled the number of people that are going to do that. And I just want to say to our guides, FamilyLife has guides, thousands of them all around the world. —been to a Weekend to Remember, gone through a FamilyLife resource, and they’re like, “I feel like God wants to use my marriage to help other marriages—

Ann:

—to impact every corner of the world.

Dave:

—here’s some help. Well, it’s interesting as I hear you talk, two thoughts. One is a lot of us in church world—I’m not talking pastors, people who attend church—

Ann (00:49:45):

—lay people—

Dave (00:49:47):

—know we’re supposed to disciple others. I mean, if your pastor or your church is doing anything right; we do this at FamilyLife all the time. We are called to the great commission. Disciples make, multiply and disciples. So I think there’s a sense that I’m supposed to do that. I think they get stuck with, “But I’m not very good,” and “I’m not sure how.” This gives another lane to think about it. So I can be a friend, or maybe it’s my marriage God wants me to use. That’s the tool that God wants to use in my life to make disciples, thinking somebody raises an issue that there’s a red flag. Like, “Oh, they’re hurting,”—by the way everybody is—but you sense it, and I’m the one that heard that. Oh, so God wants us to step into this as a friendship and I’m making a disciple, right?

Shaunti (00:50:31):

Yes. And to not be afraid of it. I spent so many years being afraid of counseling because I don’t know what I’m doing. It’s why I always say I have my team. When people call, does Shaunti do counseling? No. But is Shaunti called to be a friend to somebody who is in pain, yes.

Ann:

And to pray for them.

Shaunti:

And to pray for them and just “Can we have coffee every now and then?” Yes, all of us are.

Dave (00:51:03):

Is there a sense though—this is the other side of the devil’s advocate in my mind—that a lot of the church doesn’t really care.

Jim (00:51:14):

Ooh, great question.

Dave (00:51:15):

I think we do, but sometimes I think at least the unchurched world—

Ann (00:51:18):

Or we don’t have time.

Jim (00:51:18):

Right.

Dave (00:51:19):

—feels like we say we care but when somebody comes with a need that “me first” attitude’s still in us and we’re like, “Yeah, but I want to take care of me, and I don’t really have time.” This is going to take time, and it could go farther than I think. I’m just going to either pass it on or not get involved. Is there some of that happening as well?

Jim (00:51:38):

Absolutely. It is inconvenient to care for everybody, care for anybody. Our kids took a lot out of us as we raised them. It was not easy, and caring for other people is really demanding attention. And you get exhausted.

Ann (00:52:00):

But it’s a calling.

Jim (00:52:00):

It’s a calling.

Ann (00:52:01):

And a command.

Jim (00:52:03):

And if you do it in small chunks, so you’re not responsible to care for 200 people.

Ann:

That’s good.

Jim:

How about two. How about the person who just happens to be placed in your life, and you integrate other people into the care, so it’s not just you carrying—

Ann (00:52:22):

You bring them into your group.

Jim (00:52:24):

Yes. So it’s a community.

Shaunti (00:52:26):

I’ll give you an example of this. Because, and I should say, by the way—just to make sure we say this out loud, one of the reasons people are like, “Ah,” is because our churches don’t have a structure for it.

(00:52:41):

If we had a structure where there were people who were lay listeners that were a little bit gone through just a teeny bit of listening training and there’s great ministries like Stephen Ministry,

(00:52:54):

Which is fantastic, but that’s a whole nother level. It’s 50 hours of training. And so some people are called to that, absolutely. But if our churches were to have that basic structure, it wouldn’t seem so overwhelming because there would be many people that could take on the person who’s at the altar crying, and you need somebody to listen. But what everybody can do, whether or not they’re trained is what you just said.

And by the way, I just have to say this as a mom. Ann, I’m sure you’re thinking the same thing. Please, if you are in that phase where you aren’t even thinking straight because you’re not getting enough sleep, we are not putting more on you. You have three little kids, you do not. You’re getting four hours of sleep a night, we’re not trying to say, “You need to do one more thing.”

Ann (00:53:45):

And hopefully someone will invite you over.

Shaunti (00:53:47):

Exactly. Those are the ones—I was just going to say that—those are the ones who need it. But that mom who’s exhausted, it is possible. Keep an eye out because it may be that the woman you sit next to at the playground who starts talking about her difficult marriage, it just may be that speaking to her for 10 or 15 minutes breathes life into her, and you wouldn’t have sort of noticed that otherwise. So it’s more, be aware of this.

Jim (00:54:15):

With that idea we are not looking to train lay counselors. You’re looking to train Christians so that it’s not the people who feel called to this new ministry—

Shaunti (00:54:31):

Although that’s some of it.

Jim (00:54:32):

—yes, some will be. I have the vision of everybody that has interaction with anybody in the church needs to know how to sit with somebody else in pain. So if you are a preschool Sunday school teacher, you need this because there’s going to be that mom who’s coming either dropping off or picking up and will look completely frazzled. And just to be able to say, “Let Monica watch your daughter for a few minutes. Would you like to talk?” And anybody in the church, the person that opens their front door or serves in the coffee bar is always interacting and always in the position of I know what to do when someone shows up and it’s clear that someone needs to listen to them versus like, “Here’s—enjoy this cup of coffee. Have a good day.” And rather, no, they need to enjoy relationship with Jesus in ways that are human and not caffeinated. Their actual—

Dave (00:55:49):

—flesh on flesh.

Jim (00:55:50):

You are here in this church and God’s put me in presence with you right now.

Dave (00:55:56):

Yeah. One of the things Ann and I teach in Vertical Marriage, the last session, and the same thing happens at a Weekend to Remember, you come thinking, I want a better marriage. You leave realizing, “Oh, it’s like the woman at the well. I came for water. I left with living water.”

(00:56:13):

I come to get a better marriage, and hopefully God meets you there. But then we send him out at the last session saying He doesn’t want to just fix your marriage. He wants you to use your marriage to fix others. So now we call it make an impact on your corner of the world. I was in seminary when I first studied Matthew 5:14, which we all know, “You are the light of the world,” right? “Jesus, you’re salt, you’re light.” Let me read you something that I think is mind boggling and applies to everything you’re saying. I pulled it up right here. He says, “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.” I’m guessing you’ve heard this verse many times, and our listeners, viewers could. And he says, “Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others so that they may see your good works and give glory to your father who is in heaven.” Seminary. I’m studying this in the Greek because I’m learning Greek. I’m not a doctorate like you guys, but I have a master’s, right? And I realized that the phrase, a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, literally would read a city strategically placed on a hill cannot be hidden.

(00:57:21):

So then I’m like, okay, that’s pretty unique phrasing. And so I’m diving into this reading commentaries and studying and basically realized when he said that to the disciples and the multitude, but really the disciples, they understood what he meant. We don’t, he meant they don’t just throw cities up around these villages and valleys here randomly. They strategically place them where people in the valley and the darkness have light and they need light here, and they need light here. So he’s saying, you understand this? We don’t understand this. We just think it’s a cute phrase. He’s saying, city planners, just like they do today, strategically placed cities in strategical areas so people in the dark can find light. You are like a city hill. And so the implication is Jesus is saying, God will strategically place you and me as light around people in darkness.

Shaunti:

Thank you for sharing that. That blows my mind.

Dave(00:58:11):

That changes everything. So I came up with this phrase, make a dent where you’re sent, and people started coming to me at my church because it became this thing that Wilson would say, “Make a dent where you’re sent.” And they’d be like, “We know where you’re sent. You’re a pastor, you’re a preacher. You get up, you have a calling. Where am I sent?” So I’m like, I got to come up with this profound statement. Here it is. This is profound. You ready. Make a dent where you’re sent. You are sent where you are. It’s not profound. It’s like the dumbest thing ever. But is it true?

Shaunti:

It’s true, absolutely.

Dave:

You’re strategically placed. So what you’re saying is every guide in FamilyLife, every Christian in the world, in a sense, every day—and again, I’m not saying we don’t make decisions to get in this Uber or get on this plane. We do. We have free will—but God is saying, you’re my light.

Dave (00:59:00):

This person you just had a coffee with or walked up to you at the end of the service or sat beside you at church and said something about their pain, you’re my strategic light. Shine. Be a friend. Invite him over for a coffee. This is what you’re saying. If the church understood that, I don’t think there’d be enough room in churches because people would be running to our churches. Like that sign said, you can help my marriage. You can help me and my pain.

Shaunti (00:59:24):

Yes.

Dave (00:59:25):

I’m going to that place. Those people get it.

Ann (00:59:26):

And I like you’re saying too, you’re not saying you have to drop the big theology. You’re saying you know what they need. They just need to have someone listen to them.

Shaunti (00:59:35):

Listen, just listen to them. And by the way, one of the things that I loved, I loved when I saw this number come in on the survey. Sorry, I have to, I’m going back to the numbers.

Jim:

I love it.

Shaunti:

But it almost made me tear up is even though the pastors said, I don’t feel qualified, I feel like I’m supposed to refer out, 96 percent of the pastors agreed with the statement that the best possible way to instill great mental health in the church, mental and emotional health is a community of believers supporting one another.

Dave (01:00:10):

Oh yeah.

Ann (01:00:11):

It’s what the church is supposed to do.

Shaunti:

Exactly.

Ann:

Oh gosh.

Dave (01:00:14):

And I think it’s the Acts 2 church. That’s what it was. They had everything in common. They shared meals together. It was the model of here it is. They didn’t even need a building. It’s the community.

Ann (01:00:27):

You guys.

Dave (01:00:28):

Geez, I hope this thing blows up.

Ann (01:00:30):

Me too. That’s what I was going to say.

Shaunti (01:00:31):

We’re praying. We’re praying for the church to catch the vision. We’re praying for the body of Christ to catch the vision right. Each of us, right?

Ann (01:00:38):

Yeah. I think it’d be—Shaunti, talk to the listeners specifically. When they go to church this week or you, Jim, how does that change their view as they walk into the building?

Dave (01:00:50):

Actually, don’t just talk to church, talk to FamilyLife guides.

Jim (01:00:53):

Yeah.

Ann (01:00:53):

Yeah.

Dave (01:00:53):

Who are listening right now.

Jim (01:00:54):

I recognize in writing this book, the, “Ooh, God, you’re telling me this is not right what I do. I fly in, to church, on Sunday morning, usually late.

Shaunti:

I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Dave:

Yeah, I see you walk in. I’m up there preaching. You finally show up.

Jim:

And I’m looking at my watch and I fast to my car because it’s 15 minutes of sitting in the parking lot unless you’re first to your car.

Dave:

We see you guys walking out early.

Jim:

It’s that race to your car like this is the start of a Formula one race. And wait a minute, there’s 1500 people that go to my church. They’re all here. And I’m zipping in and zipping out just on Sunday. And I did not meet a single soul. And there are people all around, Heather and I sitting up on our little perch spot and I don’t know their names. I’ve sat with them up in this area of the church for years. That’s your row. But we’ve never interacted, and I don’t know what the hurt is and like, “Okay, that’s twisted, warped, and really, really bad.

Ann (01:02:21):

Just to put it plainly

Jim (01:02:22):

And like, “Oh look, when hurting people come to church,” and I’m looking at 1500 people and we all are. And to shift the idea from the worship experience, is the pastor and the music. Yes, yes, yes, and the worship experience is someone caring for you and someone—allowing someone actually to care for me. But we’re not even thinking about that.

Shaunti (01:02:49):

It’s one of the reasons why getting to know others in the church and building what you can of a community around you is so powerful because it allows you to say things like, “Well, come to our small group.” If you don’t have a small group, you can’t say that, right? “Come to our small group,” “Hey, the moms group meets on Saturday mornings; come to our moms’ group.” Build those opportunities and be a part of them. And I’m sure by the way, that I am preaching to the choir.

(01:03:21):

Because I know the FamilyLife listeners and you all get this. You all are these people. So we are hoping you will take the next step, which is, how can we build a system in the church if it doesn’t have one?

Jim (01:03:35):

And even—you asked the question, and I appreciate so much—what can they do? Show up 10 minutes early on Sunday. That person that you’ve just observed, and you’ve watched them from a distance, they’re sitting in that chair over there, sit down and say, “Hi, I’m Jim.”

Ann (01:03:54):

I will add this too, Jim. Our son, who is also a preacher, one of them is, and he uses the term, “Put on your ‘God goggles’” so you can see people the way God sees them. What would that look like even as a family? “Hey, hey, we’re going in here. Let’s put on our God goggles. Lord, will you show us and help us to love people and see people the way you do?” It’s just that intentional little bit like we’re going in to love and see and serve, as easy as that. And to get your kids to start looking for that. How can I just listen to you? Can I pray for you? Can I laugh with you?

Jim (01:04:30):

Yeah, very good.

Dave (01:04:32):

Yeah. And I’m even thinking, again, I go back to the FamilyLife guides who often I think they do the same thing church people do is like, “Oh, you need to meet with the pastor,” whether it’s the speaker at the Weekend to Remember, or Dave and Ann, the host, whatever it is, they think it’s that and it’s like, no, the mind shift needs to be “I’m the pastor. I’m the light.” They are lights too, but I’m the light. And in a ministry like this, we have all these tools. Just use one. Invite people over at your house. Hey, we’re going to go through Love Like You Mean It. We’re going to go through Vertical Marriage. We’re going to go through the new Art of Marriage. I’m telling you, most of us underestimate this. If you invited somebody to your house, a neighbor who never goes to church,

Dave (01:05:14):

to say, “You want some marriage help, you want a better marriage, we’ve got a tool.”

Ann (01:05:18):

“We’re struggling, but maybe you are too.”

Dave (01:05:20):

And you can even say, “Hey, I’m going to tell you it is faith based so I’m not going to hide anything. It is faith based but if you want a better marriage, I can almost guarantee you this will help.” I’ll bet you they’d show up and next thing you know, it’s like “God is using me. I just put a tool in my hand, and I used it.” That’s what I mean. It literally could change the world.

Jim (01:05:40):

You don’t invite them to church; you invite them to coffee.

Dave (01:05:44):

Yeah.

Ann (01:05:45):

You guys, this is really good. Thank you for putting the time, energy, everything into it because it’s needed. It’s really needed.

Dave (01:05:55):

And like I said, I hope this blows up.

Ann (01:05:57):

Me too, around the world.

Dave (01:05:59):

And it’s free! FamilyLifeToday.com, show notes, click the link, it’s free. You could literally be the light in your neighborhood that could literally change somebody’s eternity. Literally, I’m not using that word wrong. It’s true.

Shaunti (01:06:14):

No, it’s true.

Dave (01:06:15):

Yeah. Thanks.

Ann (01:06:18):

Hey, thanks for watching and if you liked this episode—

Dave (01:06:21):

You better like it.

Ann (01:06:22):

—just hit that like button.

Dave (01:06:23):

And we’d like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can’t say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don’t think I can say this word.

Ann:

Like and subscribe.

Dave:

Look at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.

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