
Are We Raising Our Kids Wrong? | Kathy Koch
Are you raising resilient kids in a fear-driven world? In this powerful FamilyLife Today episode, hosts Dave and Ann Wilson join Dr. Kathy Cook, founder of Celebrate Kids, to equip Christian parents with the tools to foster true resilience in their children—and themselves—through a biblical lens. Why do kids struggle with perseverance and risk-taking? Discover how well-intentioned overprotective parenting, from “helicopter” to ”lawnmower” styles, can actually hinder growth. Kathy shares eye-opening insights on the importance of allowing natural consequences (yes, even a bad grade or spilled milk!) to build character and faith, drawing wisdom from scriptures like James 1:2–4 and Romans 5:3–5.

Show Notes
- Learn more about Kathy Koch and her ministry, "Celebrate Kids" online.
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About the Guest

Kathy Koch
Dr. Kathy Koch (pronounced cook), is leading a charge to celebrate kids the way Jesus did and still does. Her ministry, Celebrate Kids, Inc., based in Fort Worth, TX, is dedicated to inspiring parents, grandparents, and those who work with children, teens, and young adults to nurture them to develop a convinced identity in Jesus Christ.
Dr. Kathy’s influence is renowned, impacting parents, educators, and children through her compelling keynote addresses, workshops, and spiritual engagements. Renowned in Christian education and advocacy circles, Dr. Kathy actively contributes her expertise to schools, churches, and community initiatives, aligning with organizations like the Colson Center, Teach Them Diligently, Care Net, and Summit Ministries to amplify her message of faith and empowerment. Her insights have garnered recognition in documentary films, notably by Kirk Cameron, and her articulate discussions are frequently featured on platforms like Focus on the Family, Moody Radio, and the American Association of Christian Counselors, further solidifying recognition as a thought leader in child development and faith formation for kids.
Dr. Kathy’s literary contributions, including seven books published by Moody Publishers, delve into critical themes of cognitive development, digital engagement, and intentional parenting, showcasing her scholarly depth and practical approach to child rearing. Her academic credentials are equally impressive, with an earned PhD in reading and educational psychology from Purdue University, and a rich background in academia and educational practice, including her tenure at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay. Since founding Celebrate Kids in 1991, Dr. Kathy has woven her deep love for Jesus and her commitment to glorifying God into the fabric of her mission, demonstrating her lifelong devotion to transforming lives through enlightenment and faith founded on the always relevant transformative Word of God.
Episode Transcript
FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript
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Are We Raising Our Kids Wrong?
Guest: Kathy Koch
Release Date: July 1, 2025
Kathy: If a parent is afraid that a child may make a mistake, deal with that. I need to allow my four-year-old to spill the milk, even though it’s going to be a hassle—now, move the computer first—protect what you can. But I’m going to let them spill the milk so that they understand that I know what I’m talking about. Let them learn.
Ann: Today’s going to be a great day because Kathy Koch is back with us.
Dave: I thought you were going to say because I was here.
Ann: Honey, it’s always a good day when you’re with me; there’s never a bad day. Well, maybe there is; but at least, we’re in it together.
Dave: Kathy Koch, welcome.
Kathy: Thank you; it’s so good to be here.
Dave: You just told us not to say how fantastic you are.
Kathy: Let’s just get right to the show.
Dave: It’s going to be mediocre is what it’s going to be. No, it’s going to be a great day!
Ann: It’s really great because, if you haven’t heard Kathy before, she gets into our lives, as a parent, and gives us tools and equips us with the questions and the answers. We’re looking for help. Kathy, you bring so much help and wisdom in this area. I think parents are going to listen to this over and over again.
Dave: Yeah; who doesn’t like a woman who started a ministry called Celebrate Kids?
Kathy: Come on.
Dave: Explain that.
Kathy: Jesus celebrated kids, even when they were the forgotten generation. I want us to celebrate kids the way Jesus did and still does.
Dave: Alright.
Kathy: They’re important.
Dave: The other thing I love about you: you just say it.
Ann: I love her!
Dave: Some people [making whining sounds] You just say it—
Ann: I wish I lived by you, Kathy.
Dave: —it’s like: boom!—“Here is what it means.”
Kathy: You’re so fun. I’m not going to waste your listeners’ time; we want them to listen to the whole show.
Dave: Like we do?
Kathy: No!
Ann: You’ve written so many books on—how many books have you written?
Kathy: I’ve only written seven.
Ann: That’s a lot.
Dave: “Only seven.”
Dave: You got one in you now you’re working on?
Kathy: I’m working on several right now, actually.
Dave: Several?
Kathy: Just like the two of you: if God gives you a message, you have to steward it.
Dave: Yeah.
Kathy: We have to.
Ann: Ours is usually through our failure though.
Kathy: I’ve written from that too.
Ann: You have?
Kathy: I think we have passion for what could have been; and because we learned through the experiences—which, again, is biblical—then let’s help other people also do the same: either prevent the grief or learn to handle it well.
Ann: Why this topic of resiliency? That’s important to you—
Dave: —resilient kids?
Kathy: Resilient kids, specifically Dave, but resilient parents, too.
Dave: Yeah.
Kathy: Resiliency is not giving up. Resilient people recover readily from challenges. They walk through their valleys—they don’t sit down and count how much grass they have per square inch—they walk out of their situations. They handle their grief, and their trauma, their fear and their embarrassment, shame and difficulties well.
We need that; we have weak children today, if I can put it that way. We have a lot of maybe weak parenting—that we’re not helping our kids stand up and walk out of situations—and therefore, they’re fragile. They whine and they complain, and they don’t achieve what God has wired into them to achieve.
Dave: Okay; we got to go there.
Ann: Yeah, I know; I just had five questions.
Dave: You just dropped 18 things. The first thing I thought, when you started describing resiliency, is: “No wonder you’re a Green Bay Packers fan. That makes sense!”
Kathy: Oh, my goodness; be careful.
Dave: There it is!
Kathy: Be so very careful.
Dave: And I’m over here in Detroit. I get it; I get it.
Kathy: Oh, that’s hysterical.
Dave: Any one of those things you just raised, what do you mean?—”We have weak kids.”
Kathy: We have children afraid to take risks; because parents are afraid for children to take risks for fear that they will look bad because their children didn’t make the team; or made a mistake, and it was public. Parenting is not about looking good through your children; and yet, if you are unsure of yourself, then you expect your child to make you look good. It’s all about, unfortunately, competition, perfectionism, and performance. We can get beyond that.
Weaker parents don’t say, “Yes” to the “Yes” things; and they don’t say, “No” to the “No,” things. Weaker parents give in to their children. I’m not shaming or blaming anybody. It’s in the air we breathe—this idea that: “I should be a friend with my kid, and I don’t really have to parent them. They’re old enough now,”—no, you parent your children. You’ll never not have the noun, “parent”; so do it right! Sometimes, we have to say, “No”; and sometimes, we have to say, “Yes.”
Ann: As soon as you said that, you defined—you said, “Parents are weaker today,”—is that what you said?
Kathy: I think so. I don’t like to say parents are weak, but I think parenting—not every parent—Ann, you know this.
Ann: But I feel like I have been that at times: you just don’t know what to do. I’ve
done this myself, where you’re coming against a culture that is just so confusing in our parenting. “Hey, they used to spank; and now, it’s timeout,” and “Now, we don’t even do timeouts.” I think parents are wondering, “What is the right thing to do?” And so then, we just let our kids do anything.
Kathy: That’s the problem, right? Let me say—
Ann: Is that the problem?
Kathy: Well, that’s one of the problems. Ann, you just said something profound too. You said, “I feel like, at times,—
Ann: Did you hear that? She said I said something profound.
Dave: I want to know what it is, because I missed it.
Kathy: That’s what I think she said.
Dave: It flew right over me.
Kathy: She said, “At times, I’ve been weak too.” At times—we’ve all been weak—at times, your kids overwhelm you; at times, you’re not feeling good; you have a headache; or your mom’s sick, and so you’re worried. And your kid is that strong-willed—so you’re weaker in a season or for a moment. I totally get that. Resilient parents walk out of that and don’t repeat that. The concern that we would have, at Celebrate Kids, is parents who don’t trust themselves to learn what to do.
You also said something very wise, twice, David.
Dave: There we go!—
Ann: Twice! I said it twice.
Dave: —in one sentence.
Kathy: She said that—
Dave: I’m going to wait until you say something about me later.
Kathy: Well, for sure; and I’ll make sure to do that.
Dave: It won’t happen.
Kathy: `So if you’re resilient, you don’t care; come on.
Dave: I do care.
Kathy: This is not a competition with your wife. Oh, my goodness.
Dave: It’s always a competition. Anyway—
Kathy: I was going to say something really profound myself right now.
Dave: And you forgot it! Well, one of the things she did say, that I think I’d love to hear your perspective, is the culture really is—I think it’s always been this way, but it feels like it’s heightened—”I want my children successful. I’ll do whatever it takes—
Ann: —“and happy.”
Dave: —”to get them success; meaning, grades, athletics—you name it—first string, not second string.” Now, we live in a culture: “If my kid’s not starting, I’ll go to a different school.” Even in college, I can now transfer to another school and get paid to do it.
Again, I’m not saying that’s all bad; but it’s like—and I coached high school football in Michigan for 12 years—I had parents berating me because their kid should be starting. I’d be like, “No, I’m there every day at practice; you’re not. You kid’s not a starter. He’s great at what he does!” They couldn’t stand letting anything hard happen to their kids. Is that the world we’re living in?
Kathy: Yes, to a large degree. That creates fragile children, who are afraid to risk, afraid to try out. They’ll say to me: “I can’t try out. If I don’t make it, Dad will hate me,” or “I can’t afford for my dad to be angry, so I’m not even going to bother trying out.” The pressure—it can be football—it can be: “I’m not going to learn the piano, because I’m probably not going to be good enough. And then, Mom will be really unhappy. I can’t afford for that to happen.” Why?—because parents are depending on their children to like them all the time. Look it up in a dictionary: the role of a parent is not to be liked by their children. I don’t want them to not like you; I just don’t think that can be the goal of parenting.
So the fragile kids, it’s the helicopter—it’s the helicopter parent or the drone parent, who’s silent, and we don’t even know they’re there watching—and they’re watching their children so closely. They move the glass of juice before the child can spill the glass of juice rather than letting the kid spill the glass to find out: “Oh, Mommy was right. If I’m flailing in my arms and I’m not paying attention, I might spill my juice; and it might get on the phone; and then, everybody’s mad. And then, I have to clean it up; and I should have listened to my mom.” If they never spill the juice, they’re not going to know that mom meant it.
Ann: You’re saying there are no consequences, natural consequences that you learn from. We’re protecting our kids from so much that they’re not learning some of the lessons that would’ve been really good for them to learn.
Kathy: Yeah, that’s so well-stated: “They don’t understand.”
Dave: Another one: “…so well-stated.”
Kathy: Yeah, they don’t understand that there are legitimate consequences of their foolishness: “If you choose to not take a coat, even though I’ve told you that it’s going to be cooler by the end of the day”; and they’re cold and they’re complaining. “Guess what? You chose not to take your coat. You can complain, all day long; but you don’t have a coat. Maybe tomorrow you’ll listen to me.”
They don’t learn that; why? Because parents [feel the] need to overprotect their children for fear that they will be found out as having a child who’s done something wrong.
Ann: I have an illustration; you can coach me in it.
Kathy: Good.
Ann: We went to Colorado, skiing at spring break, one year; I think our son was a senior in high school. This is spring in the mountains of Colorado.
Dave: Our oldest was a senior.
Ann: So sunny outside; so I hand out the sunscreen, said, “Guys, you’re going to need sunscreen today. We’re going to burn bad.” The oldest son says, “I’m not wearing sunscreen.” I’m like, “Oh, you’re going to want it.” He goes, “Whatever, Mommy.” He takes it and just wipes his hands.
Dave: He went, literally, like this.
Kathy: No; and he was, then, striped at the end of the day.
Ann: That’s it. He is so burned;—
Dave: You already knew; you already knew.
Ann: —so blistered—blisters!
Dave: We’re at the hospital.
Ann: We had to go to the hospital!—because it turned into impetigo.
Dave: And you could see his hand prints right where he put it on;—
Kathy: That’s hysterical, but it’s not.
Dave: —everything around it.
Ann: It was a great lesson. I didn’t get on him, like, “Okay, that’s what you want to do.” You think he learned the next time he goes to Colorado? I didn’t have to say anything.
Kathy: He bought his own sunscreen, right?
Ann: Yes, yes!
Kathy: Oh, that’s a great example.
Ann: But that’s what you’re saying. Is that what you mean?
Kathy: Absolutely.
Ann: “Let them figure it out sometimes.”
Kathy: Yes; now, not in a foolish way; we don’t want children hurt.
Dave: Don’t let run out on the street.
Kathy: However, if a parent is afraid that a child may make a mistake, deal with that.
Could we just go to the Bible? Could we just go to the Bible as the primary resource that we should be using? What does it say in—let’s say
James 1:2-4; Romans 5:3-5—you grow up when you walk through valleys. The Scripture teaches us that our character matures and our faith in the God of the Bible deepens when we experience Him in hard times.
When I’m in front of a live audience—and I ask people:
• “Raise your hand if, through the hard times, you’ve developed better character?”—every hand goes up.
• “Raise your hand again if, through the hard times God has ordained for you, you have greater faith in the God of the Bible?”—every hand goes up.
• And then, I say, “Raise your hand if you greatly value the things you’ve worked hard for,”—every hand goes up.
And then, I look out at them, and say, “Then why are you overprotecting your children when you have just admitted that you’ve become a better person?”
Let me say, you guys, I think if we have more maturity and more biblical character and more faith in the God of the Bible, we have a better future.
Dave: Right; right.
Kathy: If parents could picture the long game—if parents could parent with the long game—and understand that: “I need to allow my four-year-old to spill the milk, even though it’s going to be a hassle,”—now, move the computer first—protect what you can. But I’m going to let them spill the milk so that they understand that I know what I’m talking about, because I’ve lived longer than they have. So let them learn.
Dave: Well, what is the answer that parent gives you when you say—going to: “Why do you jump in and move the milk?”—why do they do that? Why do we do that? We know better, but—
Kathy: —they’re not confident in themselves, as human beings. They’re living through their children. And this is when I say: “You’re more than a mom,” and “You’re more than a dad,” and “This is not about you. You’re actually successful if you let them fail sometimes. Wrap your mind around that.”
Ann: I agree.
Kathy: You’re successful when you allow them. If they don’t remember to study, and they earn a C, don’t let them blame the teacher. And don’t blame the: “Oh, the test was so hard.” “Why was the test hard?” “Oh, the teacher’s so mean.” “No, the test was hard, because you chose not to study.”
Ann: So Kathy, let’s go back and deal with the parents first; because it sounds like the issue is with the parents. Is it that we aren’t resilient, or we just aren’t—what aren’t we doing?—are we not allowing our kids to suffer or go through pain? How do we, as parents, help our kids with this? If we’re going to have resilient kids; then we, as parents, need to do some things. What do we need to do?
Kathy: I would love to really hear you answer your own question. I think we need to, again, make sure that we are not rescuing them too soon. We can talk all day about we have to let them struggle; we can’t rescue them too soon. We have to let them achieve a victory.
My perfect example of that: I’m a jigsaw puzzle player. My family grew up doing jigsaw puzzles, and my brother’s brilliant at it. Unfortunately—when he stopped by the table, and he said, “What are you looking for?”—I told him; I never should have told him. I told him, “I’m looking for mostly yellow with a little bit of blue in the corner.” I’ve already looked at all the pieces on the left, all the pieces around the top; and I’m over here on this section. My brother stands right here and in—I feel like it was in ten seconds—he finds the piece; I wanted to slap his face. Because I’m looking for a long time for this one piece: he stole my victory.
The mom is listening to the kid at the breakfast bar, grunting and groaning: “Math is so hard; I’m so stupid!” And she comes up: “The answer is seven”; you just stole that kid’s victory. If you would’ve stood there and been quiet—this is what we do: we stand, and we’re present—the power of presence. We say, “How can I help you?” Don’t assume they want help: “How can I help you?” “Do you want quiet?” “Do you want advice?” “Do you need some music?” “What would help you?” Try to provide that for them. I actually wrote in my book about getting out of the room: “If you’re over-helping your children, leave the room.” I also say, Ann: “The desire to help comes from such a pure motive.”
Ann: Yes.
Dave: Sure.
Kathy: The parent wants to do it right, and so we think we’re helping when we protect. I would say you’re overprotecting if you don’t allow them to ever learn from the consequences—again, of their lack of attention; their foolishness; their pride; their impatience; their bad attitude—call sin “sin.” Teach them what they need to know so they can be successful; don’t overprotect. Make sure the bottom line really is that you make sure that your belief in yourself is not solely based on their behavior.
Ann: Parents are doomed.
Dave: What do you mean?
Ann: Parents are doomed if their self-esteem is reliant on their kid’s success. Honestly, because our kids are going to fail. And if that means we’re a failure, then we will overprotect.
Kathy: Oh, say that again.
Ann: I don’t even know what I said.
Dave: Another—
Kathy: “If they fail,—
Ann: This is why I love you, Kathy; you make me feel so much better about myself.
Kathy: “If they fail, that makes me a failure.” That was a really smart statement.
Could we just be honest—the three of us?—sometimes it is a parent’s responsibility and “fault.”
Ann: We have to own up to that too.
Kathy: We have to own:
• “Man, I could have been more present.”
• “I could have helped for the Bible to come alive.”
• “I could have shared more testimonies about how I dealt with difficulties.”
Many of them become prodigals because they haven’t experienced the maturity that walking with God will provide them. They haven’t needed to, because mom’s always there. One of the things that happens to fragile children—those who have been helicoptered—or we can even talk about the bulldozer parent; or the lawnmower parent, who mows out of the way, anything that would be in their child’s way.
Ann: Oh, can we talk about all those?
Kathy: Oh, my.
Ann: I like that you have words for them.
Kathy: The snowplow, bulldozer, lawnmower parent gets rid of all the challenges. The helicopter parent protects so that the challenge will be irrelevant; it’s maybe one way to say it.
Dave: I had a kid I was coaching. He was our starting center, and I knew him as a little boy. He played with my son in peewee football; but now, we’re in high school. He’s the starting center; he’s a big kid. His dad comes to me in the off season, and says, “My son should be the quarterback next year.” I go, “Your son’s awesome; he’s our starting center.” He goes, “He’s a quarterback.” I said, “No, he actually isn’t; I’ve seen him throw a ball.” He goes, “He went to the University of Michigan quarterback camp, and they told him he could be a starting quarterback in high school.” I said, “They lied.” I literally said that!
Kathy: Oh, man.
Dave: I said, “They lied. He’s going to be our starting center; he’s awesome!”
And they quit; they quit. The kid never played anywhere—never played quarterback anywhere—he tried other schools, and that wasn’t his gift mix. He had a gift mix, of course; and we had him in that spot. But his dad would not accept it. I could almost tell—he is looking at his dad, like, “Dad, I’m fine being a center. I get to start; I’m one of the best players on the offensive line. You want me to be a quarterback, and I’m not sure I’m as good as the one…Listen to Coach.”
Kathy: Yeah.
Ann: —versus another parent, who asked you: “Is my son a quarterback?”
Dave: Who was that?
Ann: Luther.
Dave: Oh, yeah.
Kathy: Oh, interesting.
Ann: And this one: Dave said, “He’s not a quarterback.”
Dave: You want to hear a phenomenal story? This guy was a first-round draft pick of the Detroit Lions—his dad—now, he’s out in Colorado. His son’s playing high school football. They won the state championship.
Luther calls me, and says, “Hey, my son is not getting any scholarship offers,”—even though he was the quarterback and linebacker on this state championship team—he goes, “He told the colleges, ‘I’m only a quarterback. I will not go to your school if you won’t let me play quarterback.’” Luther says, “I know you’re a college quarterback. You coach quarterbacks.” I can’t believe he asked me to do this; he goes, “Can I send you his film? Would you be honest and tell me:—
Kathy: Love it.
Dave: “’Do you think he’s a college quarterback?’” I go, “I’d love to.” I watched three or four films. I call him up; I go, “Dude, your son is the best player on the field. He’s not a quarterback. You won a state championship, because he ran over everybody and ran around everybody; but he’s not a quarterback. He will play anywhere you want him to play in college if he’ll say to colleges, ‘I’ll play linebacker’; I think he’ll get a full ride.”
Kathy: Wow.
Dave: He did!
Kathy: So he changed it; you were able to help convince him.
Dave: He got a full ride; played linebacker at Idaho. He’s now in his sixth year for the Atlanta Falcons, as a starter.
Kathy: Oh, it’s cool.
Dave: I think I should get 10 percent of his career.
Kathy: Amen!
Dave: Just look at the difference in a parent, who says, “I want to get insight. I want him to do the right thing”; rather than, “He has to be this.”
Kathy: Oh, see; it’s so good. The dad, who is confident in who he is—
Ann: That’s what it is.
Kathy: Yeah. You mentioned self-esteem; actually, confident in who he is and wanting the boy to have joy—right, Dave?—
Dave: And the guy—
Kathy: —wanting the son to have joy, wanting the son to become who he was created to be. We can’t interfere in that; those are profound examples.
Dave: So what keeps the parent from doing that? Those are two different parents. One couldn’t do it and one could.
Kathy: Again, a confidence in self. I think, sometimes, the parents regret their own childhood; and they’re trying to live through their children: “I didn’t get to be quarterback. I’m sure my son will be.”
Again, could we all say that? “No, you don’t live through your children; have a life.” I might have said this to you before: “If you need your children to be your friends, go develop a hobby and join a team somewhere. Invite somebody to be your friend, because this is not the design of the Lord. That’s not what it’s about.”
Ann: Well, you’ve got some really good quotes that you say: “Resiliency begins as a choice; becomes a learned ability; and then, matures into part of their character.”
Kathy: That’s ideal. Recovering readily is a choice. When a child learns how to walk, when they fall down the first time, you expected them to fall down. You don’t yell at them: “Wait five years until you’ll be perfect.” No, you stand them back up. You grab a camera; you brag to everybody that they tried to do something; they weren’t even successful. But they were successful because they tried to do something—that’s resiliency—recovering readily. It’s a choice to stand up and try again. It’s a learned ability—the more often we do it, the greater the possibility that we’ll learn how to start over and not regret the past—and then, part of our character.
A new book I wrote on character resiliency is in the baker’s dozen, top 13; because we have to readily recover from difficulties because life is full of them. If we don’t know how to readily recover—“My friend didn’t call me back; oh, woe is me. Life stinks,”—no, your friend didn’t call you back; that doesn’t mean that”—again, if you’re weak, and if you have a negative pessimistic orientation to the world—“then, ‘I must be a terrible person because my friend didn’t call me back,’ and ‘My friend is a terrible person, because she didn’t call me back,’ and ‘I’m not going to bother with any other friendship possibilities, because all people are terrible.’” That’s what afraid people do, and that’s not of the Lord.
If we’re believers, come on! Negativity is a part of life, right? Let’s go there—that can happen to the best of us—but it’s not an orientation to life if you’re a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ann: I wonder if it’s helpful to share with our kids stories of people who have had hard things happen, but they have been resilient and bounced back up. I know that our granddaughter’s been interesting to watch—some of the things our kids or grandkids liked to watch or play with, or the movies they’re resonating with—
Kathy: Sure; sure.
Ann: —like Bethany Hamilton; is that her name?
Kathy: Oh, yes.
Ann: She’s the surfer.
Kathy: The surfer who lost her arm.
Ann: A shark bit her arm off. My granddaughter was probably five years old; and every day she’d walk around with her arm inside her shirt, pretending to be Bethany Hamilton. I kept thinking, “What is that?” I think it’s the overcoming part.
Kathy: Exactly; it’s the survivor; it’s the overcomer.
Ann: Yes! Resilience.
Kathy: Yeah. I think, “Well, yes; and aren’t we created for that?”
Ann: Yes.
Kathy: We’re created in God’s image. He calls us “overcomers.” We know that sin doesn’t define us—we’re dead to sin—the Christian can rise above it all. I absolutely believe in that: role models. We can be role models. I think it’s powerful to have the assistant at the church, the bus driver, the chef at the school—we don’t have to use powerful people as our role models—we can use everyday people.
I’m a huge fan of Bible heroes. Jesus is the most resilient person you might ever know about. You can name any others: David, and Moses, and Paul. Oh, my goodness, inventors are great examples of resiliency, where they’ve tried thousands of times to make something work.
Ann: That’s a good idea.
Kathy: They didn’t consider themselves a failure. They were learning the whole time. Athletes, if you’re a great baseball player—and you make it to first base, three out of ten times, you’re excellent—three out of ten times. I like inventors, athletes, musicians—the person that your grandkid loves didn’t make it to main stage overnight—they had played a lot of backrooms for free before they ever [made it], and the kids don’t know that.
The work it takes for us to be recognized, if you will—all of us have a story—I wasn’t a keynoter the day that I became a public speaker. I spoke to very small audiences for very little money at the beginning. And the Lord has blessed those efforts. I think resiliency in our lives; and then, pointing it out to our kids, to say that.
Ann: That’s what I was going to say.
Kathy: To say to a son, and a granddaughter: “I remember when you weren’t able to do that. Look at how you have chosen to mature,” “Look at how you’ve chosen to be teachable,” and “You’ve chosen to practice, and you’ve benefited from that. I’m so proud of you.” They need to hear that!
Ann: I wonder, too, do we as parents, should we share our failure stories?—but how God has taught us in the midst of that? And even say: “That was one of the hardest things I’ve been through, but it also has become the most character-shaping experience I’ve ever gone through.”
Kathy: Bingo.
Ann: Our kids know that about our marriage—as they got older, not when they were young—but they know that our marriage struggled, but God shaped us more through that than anything else.
Kathy: Yeah, I think there’s a place for that. I’m a big believer in sharing the struggle when they are mature and ready to handle it, where they don’t throw it back in your face.
Ann: Right; at the right time.
Kathy: Here’s what children tell me: “If you [the parent] present yourself as perfect, then they’re afraid to be imperfect in front of you.” So if you present—
Ann: Could we ask our kids that?—”Do you think I’m perfect?” or “Do you think I’m…”—what would be a question [a parent could ask]?
Kathy: I would ask, “Do you think perfection is important to me?” “Oh, absolutely,” “How do you know that?”
Dave: You know why she just went—
Kathy: No; why did she do that?
Dave: I think we would say, “Our kids would say, ‘Yes,’ about us.”
Kathy: And then, you ask the follow-up question, Dave: “Is it possible that I simply have high expectations?” So people who expect perfection are unhappy with an A-, because they wanted an A. They’re unhappy with JV; they wanted Varsity. They’re unhappy with a two in the solo and ensemble concert; not a one. So were our expectations fair, but high?
My brother has a PhD—earned a PhD and a post-doctorate—I have an earned PhD. Our parents had high expectations, and education was important. We are both grateful for the high expectations; I would not be here today without my parents believing in me. The possibilities were endless, and they weren’t even believers.
Dave: Was there pressure?
Kathy: I didn’t feel it.
Dave: —from them?—no?
Kathy: I didn’t feel it. The desire I had was to become who I was created to be, which is why my story is so important to me. I wasn’t even a believer at the time—I came to Christ at 19—was raised in church. But I’ve always been living on purpose. I think purpose is just the king; we just have to live on purpose.
Ann: I think we, as parents, can help our kids with that. When our kids were little, like toddlers, I would say, “I can’t wait to see what God has in store for you.”
Kathy: Yes, yes.
Ann: And they would say, “Is it a present?”
Kathy: Oh, I love that; I love that.
Ann: And I said, “When you discover what God put in you, and what He created you to do, it is a present.”
Kathy: Oh, that’s brilliant.
Ann: To start saying those things when our kids are little so that they start looking forward to: “Who am I?” “ What is my identity?” Because you talk about some of the core needs that kids have.
Kathy: Absolutely. Let’s use piano as an example. When you bravely decide to allow your child to play the piano, it cannot be easy to listen to those scales and to listen to the same Row, Row, Row Your Boat 52 times on the piano as the kid gets ready for the lesson on Tuesday. That might be really, really difficult. Or peewee football can be really difficult the first season; but if they don’t give up, they could find great joy, and purpose, and passion. Everybody who’s now serving the Lord, as a worship leader, started out as a terrible guitar player. It was the parents who had patience; and the parents, who said, “A little more effort, and I think you’ll be fine.”
I would say to parents: “If after two years, there’s no progress; and the teacher even affirms for you that isn’t a gift, then they’re allowed to quit as long as they fulfill commitment. That would include things like sports. Again: “You signed up to play soccer. I don’t care if you hate it; you’re finishing out the year, because your team and your coach is depending upon that.” And guess what? Four weeks later, at the end of the season, “Can I play again?” They found the rhythm; and they found the joy; and they found the satisfaction. We can’t let kids quit early. Again, that’s the parent, who steps back and says, “Oh, this is so hard; but it’s okay, because it’s not about me being happy all the time.”
Dave: You think you ever let them quit? Should you?
Kathy: Yes; they can’t pursue all their interests, Dave. I think we get to a limit—there’s music, there’s art; there’s academics; there’s service; there’s youth group; there’s missions trip; there’s family—there’s just so much. There’s so much pressure on our kids today to get it all figured out.
I think, “Yeah, sometimes, we quit. Sometimes, we discover that a passion has shifted.” They were interested in athletics: I know of somebody who was a very talented athlete through his sophomore year in high school; and then, he knew that that wasn’t going to continue. He knew that he was arriving at a place of a different set of interests and a different passion, a different call from the Lord. He asked his parents’ permission: “Even though I’m talented, and my team needs me, I really feel like my time is up. I’d like to have time to devote to something else.” I think it was right for him to ask—that was very respectful—and right for parents to say, “Hey, we agree. Let’s put some emphasis somewhere else.”
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Ann: Okay, let’s dive back into the conversation.
Ann: What about the kid, who’s stuck? I’m thinking, “I feel like I know a lot of parents with kids right now, who are even in elementary school, who won’t try anything because they’re afraid of failure. They don’t want to try out for basketball; and they don’t want to be in the band; and they don’t want to do anything. They’d rather just play video games.
Kathy: Oh, good heavens; right.
Ann: And so parents are saying, “I don’t know what to do.” What would you say to the parents in that circumstance?
Kathy: One thing that I would teach is to make sure that we say to our kids, “Not everything is going to be easy.” When kids complain to me, “School is so hard.” I’m like, “Good.” They’re like, “No, you didn’t hear me. I said school was hard.” I’m like, “Good. Because if it’s easy, you don’t need to be there. The purpose of school is to learn what you don’t yet know. So it’s okay for you to not know it the first day. It’s okay for you to be a little bit stressed at double-digit addition, with carrying;”—or whatever the case may be—“but we don’t give in and give up. Learning is what we’re called to in
Proverbs 4:13 and other verses. We’re going to do that in our family. We have a family value of curiosity, and learning, and risk-taking.”
If they truly won’t take a lot of risks, I would ask the parents and grandparents: “Step back and examine yourself. How do you respond to their mistakes?” or “If you have a child, who asks you for help, is your response: ‘Why?’ Weren’t you listening the first time?’” That kid’s not going to ask you for help ever again!
Again, maybe they weren’t listening; but I would advocate that a child was brave to ask you for help. That took courage for them to admit that—for them to come, and say, “Dad, what am I supposed to do next?”—”I’m so sorry that you weren’t paying attention; but I’ll answer you today: ‘This is the next thing to do.’ Now, what would help you listen better tomorrow?” You can use it as instructional if you want to; but kids who won’t take risks are often told they’re wrong. There’s often a critical spirit in the family; they’re often shamed when they need help.
Could we just remember that learning isn’t easy? We might love math, and we’re looking over their table and over their shoulder. They don’t like math; it’s a challenge for them, and we love it. That’s a dangerous combination. We need to step back; and again say, “This isn’t about me.” I think that should be like a refrigerator magnet: “It’s not about me.” And can we get out of our own self, if you will, and get out of our way, and parent our kids in those moments?
Ann: Do you think parents are being too easy on their kids now?
Kathy: There’s a history to that question: “Do I think parents are being too easy on kids?” Sometimes, I do. I think, sometimes, they over-rescue, where they can’t let their kids struggle because it makes them feel bad. So overprotecting, and quickly answering their questions, and not making them suffer the consequences of their decisions—I would say, in some families, that’s the case—and those are parents who need to really question: “Why are they so concerned about mistakes?” “What are they afraid of?”—if their kid gets something wrong; or their kid doesn’t make the team; or doesn’t make the honors symphony, and only makes the second string, if you will.
I think other parents are way too hard on their kids.
Dave: Yeah; why’d you ask that?
Ann: I feel like, generationally-speaking, we’re parenting kids differently in generations. We even have names for generations. I’m thinking [my] parents weren’t very involved in my life—my brothers’ lives, they were—but they didn’t even know what I was doing. Part of that was just because they trusted people more than I think—because of social media and news, we know what’s happening—and it’s freaking us out, as parents; so we do become more protective. It feels like we’re more scared now, as parents, because our kids are facing a lot of things that maybe they didn’t in other generations.
Kathy: True.
Ann: So I’m just wondering because of all we hear is: the generation raising kids right now—because of all they’re seeing and experiencing—I wonder if they’re putting safeguards around their kids, because they feel like the world is scary; and “We need to protect our kids.”
Kathy: And we do; I would affirm that there are some school choices to really consider; and certainly, what your children are watching on social media. If they are on social media: “Why are they there?” “What are they watching on TV that you’ve allowed in their rooms?” “What are they listening to that you might not even know they’re listening to?”—”Are they following?”
Ann: So you said, “If they’re on social media, ‘Why are they there?’”
Kathy: Bingo: “Why?”
Ann: What’s the answer to that? So you don’t think they should be on social.
Kathy: No, ma’am.
Ann: At all?
Kathy: No.
Dave: —at any age.
Ann: How old? You have some passion behind that.
Dave: You’re a radical.
Ann: I like this.
Dave: Let’s hear it; let’s hear it.
Kathy: I believe that if you are going to allow—if you believe your children will get onto social media when they graduate out of your home—then they should learn how to handle it in your home. If, at the age of 18, they’re going to go to trade, tech, college, university, junior college, missions; then, for the last several months of them living in your home, let them on an app—maybe one or two that you believe are safe—and you make sure that they’re your friend. Teach them discernment; and teach them time management; and make sure that if they—and I would say this is what I write about—that their character is destroyed by tech. The most grateful person can become entitled in five days because of technology.
Ann: You’re saying that their character can be wrecked by being on social?
Kathy: Absolutely. We’re the most entitled people on the face of God’s green earth. No, I don’t know that for sure; maybe 20 years ago, people were just as entitled.
Ann: “It feels like it”; you’re saying.
Kathy: I live four and a half miles from an Amazon distribution center. That’s both wonderful and horrible; because I can order something at noon and have it by eight. If they don’t give it to me by eight, I’m like, “Why didn’t you have that in stock? You should have known that I was ordering that. I’m amazing; have you not met me?”
Dave: Yes, it’s the microwave society.
Kathy: Yeah, it’s the Microwave; GPS; Everything-is-easy Society. So technology can cause that shift in children—from: “I am grateful,”—to: “I’m entitled. I deserve what I want when I want it.” Now, we’re of the generation where we had to save $18 and go buy a whole album for the one song we wanted.
Dave: Yep.
Ann: We’re in a generation—I remember the Peanuts: A Charlie Brown Christmas special—I had to wait once a year; you had to get it right at the right time on that hour on Saturday night to watch it.
Kathy: You had to be home at the right time; permission to watch, and all of that. And now, we’ve got kids with really too much freedom.
Back to the original question—if they’re going to be on social media at some time, have them begin it while they’re in your home—but at the age of 13, which is the legal age: “Why do they need that?”—”Are we not providing them with friendship and social outlets?”—”Do they not have people to hang out with?”—in a youth group, and a service team at their Christian school, in a homeschool co-op?
Ann: Give the parents a conversation of what that will sound like when their kids are just pestering them, every hour every day, to be on social media. What do we say?
Kathy: When the kid says, “Everybody else is,”—”Well, that’s a lie; you’re not,”—so if they say, “Everybody is”; “That’s a lie; you’re not.” That’ll get them thinking. “I parent you; God has called us,”—this is the dad speaking, ideally—”God has called us to parent you. Our responsibility is not for your neighbors, not for your cousins, not for any other kid in your class; but our responsibility is to God for you. We have decided that it is best for you, and best for the values of our family, if we all abstain from social media.”
Ann: All?!
Kathy: Or again, if the mom is on it, then she’s on it when the kids are in bed. In my opinion, they don’t see her scrolling.
One of the reasons that we’ve got really troubled kids is we have distracted parents. Again, please understand: I’m on social media. There’s good uses of it; I’m not banning it in entirety. However, children are telling us/they’ll say: “I’m not going to have a hard conversation with my mom if she’s on social media,” “If she’s got her phone, I’m not going to talk to her; because as soon as it dings, or pings, or rings, she’s gone; she’s emotionally absent,” and “I’m not going to start a conversation a second time; it was hard enough the first time.”
If you want your kids to be coming to you with their concern about risk, or loss, or grief, or fear, get off of your devices. This is why I said that. Again: “We’re parenting you,” and “Our decision has been made because I believe that chronological ages are relevant, and character age trumps everything.”
Ann: What do you mean by that?
Kathy: Meaning that they’re 16, and they can drive. “No,”—if you’re 16 years old, and you’ve got your learner’s permit; but you’re aggressive and quickly irritable, and you have no impulse control; and you’ve shown me that you’re irresponsible—you can’t even find your school notebook—”I’m not giving you [the] car keys,” “Yes, but I’m 16,” “I know you are; but no, you don’t get to drive,” “Why?” “Because your character has demonstrated that you are not ready.”
I think this is actually an interesting conversation in a show about resiliency, because we’re teaching our children that their behavior matters to us.
Ann: Yes.
Kathy: “You’re 13, and that might be a legal age for some social media apps; but you’re immature. You’re already easily manipulated by your friends. You’ve demonstrated that you have an entitled attitude—that you want steak when I was making pork chops—and you demand choice.” The apps on all of our devices [has] trained us to believe that choices are rights. That’s not true; choice is a privilege. But if they’re already 13, and demanding choice—teachers tell me all this time—the teacher will say, “Three hundred fifty words, cursive writing in blue, due on Wednesday.” And the kid is like, “If I type it, and do five hundred words, can I turn it in on Thursday?” They’re always negotiating. This is why parents are tired; and parents are quick to say, “Just do whatever you want.” I understand that.
Ann: —because they’re tired.
Kathy: Because they’re tired; because they’re scrolling on social media, maybe, more than they should.
Ann: Kids are negotiating more now than they have before?
Kathy: Yes, based on what we know; because the devices have taught them to negotiate.
Ann: Oh, interesting.
Kathy: I mean, there’s so many options; there’s all these options.
Again, I use technology; I couldn’t run the ministry the way that we run it without it. And yet, I’m old enough that my brain was finished when I started using it, so it hasn’t had the kind of control over me—to God be the glory—but we also,—
Ann: I’m still stuck on the part—maybe, parents are listening; maybe, you’re stuck on this part too—where Kathy just said, “If your kids are home, you shouldn’t be on your social media, scrolling.”
Kathy: Yeah; that’s ideal, Ann; ideal. I’ve recommended, as I teach that—the men, and the moms and the dads—“You check your banking website after they’re in bed,” “You go to espn.com after bed, if that’s important,” “You want to choose a new refrigerator—you go to the website; do the research—when they’re in bed,” or “Involve your ten-year-old and teach them a couple of things about discernment: ‘This store has this kind of refrigerator, with this many cubic feet, for this sale price.’” That would be amazing, so you can use technology together. Watch YouTube videos together would be good; better than doing it isolated. “Are children your priority, or aren’t they?”
Ann: I do that with my grandkids. I’m careful to pull it out—
Kathy: Good for you.
Ann: —for when our grandkids are there.
Dave: And she gives me the eye if I pull it out, and she should.
Kathy: Again, here’s the thing, too, Dave: “Let’s teach them the difference between need and want.” I’m going to go to dinner with some friends tonight. I may have my phone; and I may have it on, and I may need to take a call. I’ll look at them, and say, “Hey, if you don’t mind, I’m going to answer this.” We all are mature adults, and we know that there’s a difference between need and want. So you don’t pull it out if it’s just a want—if you’re bored, because you’re talking to an eight-year-old—don’t pull it out. But if it rings, you need to say to your grandson, “Oh, if you don’t mind, I need to check this. My boss might need me,” or—
Ann: So you’re explaining it.
Kathy: Yeah, you’re teaching the difference between need and wants;—
Ann: That’s good.
Kathy: —which is, we could talk all day about that; that’s just huge. “ Do I want a diet Coca-Cola; or do I need it?” We use “want” and “need” horribly.
Dave: Yeah, yeah; I was just going to say that parenting tip, in the last five minutes, could, literally, change a household.
Ann: Yes.
Kathy: That’s so kind of you to say.
Dave: If mom and dad—or if we—decided: “I am not going to use this device. It’s tearing down our families. We’re modeling for our kids; we’re trying to ask them to do the same thing.”
Ann: I’m just going to share a failure this week, actually with our son, who has children. This is awful.
Dave: Oh, I was there; it was a failure.
Kathy: Okay, let’s hear it.
Ann: See, I’m a verbal processor; I’m trying not to say it when I think it. Kathy, it’s so hard for me.
Dave: This is an adult son with his own kids.
Ann: Adult son, but his kids are with him. He’s on his phone. I can hear them asking him something; they have a need. I come over; and I get the kids—take them—and I say, “You would be a much better father if you weren’t on your phone.”
Kathy: Oh, my.
Ann: It pretty much erupted as that son—
Kathy: So he did not appreciate it in the moment.
Ann: Wasn’t I helpful? I was just so helpful. I don’t know why he wouldn’t just say, “Oh, thank you, Mother, for your kind advice.” I shouldn’t have said it; I should have prayed about it,”—I might think that.
Dave: Well, coach her up. What should she have said?
Ann: Yeah, let’s say even: a wife thinks that about her husband, or the husband thinks about the wife.
Dave: Or this wife thinks about this husband that.
Ann: So it’s not good to just blurt it out in front of the kids—or whatever—that was a bad move on my part, for sure. Coach us.
Kathy: Well, I appreciate your humility. I love that you recognized it. I love that you’re passionate for the family, and that’s where your words came from.
Ann: I like that you started out with a positive; thank you.
Kathy: That’s what we should do—I mean it; I didn’t make that up—and then, we wait. We wait for another time—when the kids are gone, the grandkids are gone—and he’s available, to say, “I don’t know if you noticed it, but Jonathan was asking five times for something that seemed legit to me. I’m concerned that you weren’t available,”—I would start with, rather than: “Turn your phone off,”—”I’m concerned that you weren’t available,” or “I’m concerned that you weren’t fully present.”
I like that phrase: “fully present.” That’s what kids have said to me: “They’re never really with me, Dr. Kathy.” I cannot tell you how many kids have said to me: “They watch me play,” and “I wish they’d play with me.” We’re observing; we’re a culture of observers. And oftentimes, it’s because our phone is more important.
And then, I would possibly say to an adult son: “I am afraid that your kids are learning something about you by the choices you’re making,” “Well, what are they learning, Mom?” “That your phone’s more important to you than they are.” That’s what they’re learning; that’s the way I would maybe approach it.
Ann: How do you think a husband and wife could approach that?—in the same kind of way?
Kathy: Yeah, I think we’re ideally—again, for the audience members who don’t know: I am single and more than satisfied—
Ann: —but you’ve worked enough with people and couples.
Kathy: Yeah; this is what I do.
First, with respect, you say, “I feel ignored,”—”I feel…”—not: “You should put away your phone.” You have a right to your feeling; you have a right to your disappointment. “Could we”—we is a powerful pronoun—
Ann: That’s a good one.
Kathy: —Not: “You should stop using your phone,”—but: “Could we agree that, from dinner through 9:00 pm,”—we’re not that important—see, this is the thing too. I can check my phone at a red light. What do I think has happened in the last three minutes? I am not that important.
Ann: We all do it though!
Kathy: I know. We all do it; we’re so quickly bored.
So this is what I would love for the husband and wife to get: “What’s going on there?”—”Am I bored?”—”Am I anxious?”
Ann: “Am I escaping?”
Kathy: “Am I”—what?—“escaping”; exactly, Ann.
And then, I think what happens, if you have those conversations and say, “I’m feeling less than; could we develop a hobby?” “Could we listen to an audible together?” “Could we learn a new board game?” “Could we go for a walk?” Here’s the thing: you can’t stop something without starting something, because that vacuum of—
Dave: —gap.
Kathy: —we’re addicted. We’re addicted to the adrenaline drop. We’re addicted to the lie that: “I’m so important; I have to check my phone.” We’re addicted to the lie that: “I’m amazing; have you met me? Everyone’s talking about me on Facebook.”
Dave: FOMO.
Kathy: Yeah, exactly; that whole FOMO-thing.
I think we say: “If there’s a legitimate need, tell me.” You get home from work, and you say, “Man, my colleague has a business trip and wasn’t feeling well this morning. I may need to go in his place. So I’m so sorry, but I need to leave my phone on tonight; because I might be packing a suitcase and heading to the airport.” You announce it. This is, again, where we come at it from a need versus a want standpoint.
Dave: I remember, at the time—you won’t remember it—well, maybe, you will.
Ann: Did I mess up again?
Dave: That was way back—we had three boys—they’re little toddlers at this time. We’re at a playground. I grew up with no dad. Ann and I are sitting on this bench, and Ann goes onto the jungle gym with all three boys.
Kathy: Yes.
Dave: I’m sitting there, watching.
Kathy: —watching.
Dave: You know what I’m thinking?—”This is awesome. I’m a dad now; look at my kids over there.” Ann comes over; and she knows I’m competitive. She sits down, and she goes, “Hey, look at all the dads.” I look around; every dad is watching. All the moms are on the jungle gym. She goes, “You want to be one of those dads?” And she left.
Kathy: Ann!
Dave: And that’s all she had to say. I was like, “I should be on the stinking jungle gym with my kids.” And again, I’m not blaming that I didn’t have a model. I never even had that thought until she said that. I’m like, “Hey, you know what?”
Kathy: —you went and did it, right?
Dave: Ask her.
Ann: He’s the best.
Dave: I think I was on the jungle gym the next 20 years; I never stopped.
Kathy: I love that.
Dave: Every kid in the neighborhood came down to my house every night, because “Mr. Wilson will play.” I became that dad; because she just said,—
Ann: He’s a master.
Dave: —“Do you want to watch? or Do you want to be engaged?” I’m like, “That’s all I need to hear.” It’s like, “You are right; let’s go.”
Kathy: Ann, that was so beautiful. You loved your husband. You wanted him to have the joy that you had, and you loved your boys. So proud of you!
Ann: Thank you; I don’t know if my motive was that great. I was like, “Come on!” But he’s so good at that.
Kathy: That’s so good.
Ann: I told him that this week: “When he plays with our grandkids, he is the funniest—most fun—
Dave: She said to me on the flight, coming down here; she goes, “You know something I love this, last week?” I go, “What’s that?” She goes, “Bryce,”—our sixth grandchild—
Ann: No, he’s six years old.
Dave: —six years old; I don’t know what number grandchild he is. He’s getting at the age where he’s jumping on you. He’s feeling his strength, and he’s [becoming] a strong little dude. I’m lying on their basement carpet.
Ann: They’re wrestling.
Dave: He’s just diving on me and pushing. And you can feel he really—and I didn’t even realize it—she goes, “The whole time, you get that giggle.”
Kathy: Oh, I love it.
Dave: I go, “The giggle?” She goes, “That’s what you did with our boys; and they love it. They’re finding themselves: you wanting to play.” And I’m like, “I love it too; it’s a blast!”
Kathy: Oh, it’s so good.
Ann: Well, for boys, especially, with that testosterone,—
Kathy: Of course.
Ann: —they need to sweat. I told our kids—especially, in a cold climate in the winter—“They need to sweat, somehow, every day.”
Kathy: Well, play is life-changing. Play is like cement for the relationship. Play is freedom. You can’t play perfectly, so to play gives a child risk; to play gives a child freedom to try. They don’t even know what they’re doing; but they’re experimenting the whole time, whether you’re playing on the floor or you’re playing a new board game.
My favorite thing to recommend is that the whole family plays something new. The whole family goes to a park no one’s ever been before. The whole family learns a new game that Mom and Dad don’t even know. Now, they know more about game playing; but they’ve never played that game. So there seems to be some freedom of the risk.
Play is communication. Play makes bad days easier to handle because it’s fun; and there’s joy in that. We don’t do it enough, because why?—we’re so busy, and we’re on our phones.
Ann: I think now, when you go to a park and the parents are sitting—and I am guilty of this too—it’s easy to be on our phone.
Kathy: Absolutely.
Dave: They’re not even watching their kids.
Ann: Not even watching; yes.
Kathy: May I tell you a sad story?
Ann: Yeah.
Kathy: I don’t know if I’ve mentioned this to you before; but when I was writing my book about technology’s effect on our behavior and beliefs—how technology changes our beliefs—I was at a playground, researching, and observing, and talking to people. A young boy, five or six years old, had done something very clever on an apparatus. He came over to his mom. Now, when I was six, I would’ve said, “Did you like that mom? Wasn’t that cool?”
Ann: “Did you see me?”
Kathy: You know what he said?—“Mom, was that good enough for Facebook; or should I do it again?”
Dave: Wow.
Ann: Ohh!
Kathy: He’s six years old.
Dave: He really said that.
Kathy: Yes; “…was it good enough for Facebook, or should I do it again?”—already knowing that: “I am performing for my mom.”
Now, I’m back to how we started this out. We talked earlier about kids don’t want to take risks, and kids don’t want to be wrong. Parents can’t afford for their kids to be wrong. I wonder if that’s where that starts.
Dave: Yeah; “I’m performing for my mom and, even, for her friends.”
Kathy: Yes, yes; “My mom has to post something that’s really clever—better than—she has to have a new reel for Instagram.” These are real things.
Dave: It’s going to be a highlight reel; never a mistake.
Kathy: Right, right.
Dave: Let me ask you this—because one of your core values is identity?
Kathy: Yes, sir.
Dave: If we’re trying to instill wonderful positive identity in our kids, we often, as parents, think mistakes and failure don’t help them build a positive identity; it helps them build a negative one. So we try to protect that; is that how it works?
Kathy: No, sir.
Dave: I didn’t think so.
Kathy: That’s so good. I think mistakes and failure—I don’t like the word, “failure,”— but mistakes help us identify what we’re not called to do. Mistakes point out the challenges.
Dave: —not your gift.
Kathy: Yes; mistakes say, “I’m not as athletic as my brother, but that is okay.” It has to be okay. Why?—because we honor God’s creative intent when He makes us. He chose to make me not athletically-inclined. That’s okay—unless my dad needs me to have a high school starting quarterback position—then, it’s not okay.
Mistakes are a part of life; we’re not created perfectly. If we think we’re perfect, we don’t need a Savior; and we go to hell. This is no joke; this is serious business. Mistakes are a part; challenges are a part. [The grade of] B is better than a C. It’s not an A, but that’s okay; unless your kid wants a career that needs to have that A. Again, can we handle that?
Identity is best formed with strengths: “What do you do well?” “Where’s your passion? Where do you get your joy from?” But the reality is that we all have things that are less than ideal for us. That’s okay. One of my stories is that spelling doesn’t come naturally to me. I’ve written seven books; I’m working on several right now; I use a thesaurus to write with. There’s nothing wrong with that. I travel with a Misspeller’s’ Dictionary so I can look up the word the way I think it should be spelled and find it the right way. And that’s true—spelling is [a weakness]—I have an earned PhD, and I’m a writer; but I don’t give into my weakness.
That’s the other thing about identity. You can say that: “I’m not as”—it shouldn’t be comparison: “I’m not as good at this as my brother,”—who cares? You just say, “I’m not terribly good at this.” Don’t let your identity be a comparison identity; but just say, “Spelling isn’t my strength, but I’m still going to write.” “Why?”—“Because I have messages that God has asked me to spread out, and I’m not going to let my weaknesses win.”
Dave: Now, how does a parent say that to his child, who isn’t good at something, without thinking, “I’m killing his identity”? Because you watch American Idol—the first couple of rounds—they get up, and say, “My mom says I’m the greatest singer ever.” And you’re like, “Your mom lied.”
Kathy: Exactly!
Dave: But you’re thinking, “The mom wanted to be affirming, and so she wasn’t truthful; but now, [the child’s] going to find out the truth.” How do you do it, as a parent, when you want them to have a great identity; but you got to be honest, and say, “This probably isn’t your lane.”
Kathy: We make sure that they know their strengths: “You’re a creative thinker,” “You’re a quick problem-solver.”
Ann: That’s good.
Kathy: “I’ve noticed that you play so kindly with your sister. When you teach her a new game, you’re slow and patient; and you’ve let her win. I love that you have compassion for people.”
We make sure that we’re specific in affirming strengths and, maybe, we categorize them:
• “I’ve noticed that you’re musical.”
• “I’ve noticed that you’re artistic.”
• “I think math and science are your jam.”
• “You just love exploring; and that’s why, when I said, ‘Don’t put that stuff in the bowl yet,’ you wanted to put it in the bowl right away. You wanted to know what would happen. God made your mind a thinking brain. I love that about you.”
We’re very oriented towards strength—giving God the credit—and then, they’re going to be able to handle it when we find out: “Well, this isn’t easy for me; but you know what? That’s okay.” “You can learn to persevere, and to be diligent, and to be teachable. You can learn to find—in fact, I have great joy overcoming the things that are a challenge for me—and I can’t wait for you to find out that the same thing’s going to happen to you.” We try to spin it in a way that would be a character-building experience.
But you know what, Dave? We have to keep saying: “It is okay.” “But my best friend is such a runner,” “I know. So you want to go to the track meet, and we’ll cheer him on?”
Ann: That’s so good.
Kathy: We still let them cheer for their friends when we say, “You don’t have to be like him.”
Ann: Kathy, you just dropped—as you were giving an example of what you would say to your child—you dropped so many positive things as you were talking.
Kathy: Thanks.
Ann: And if we do that to our kids on a regular basis: “Man, I see this in you…” “You’re so good at this,” or “Your character is this…”
Dave: “You were the best at that.”
Ann: “Oh, that’s neat.”
Ann: —“not at the beginning.”
Dave: “You were phenomenal at that. You are now.” You build me up every day; you see greatness in people.
Kathy: Oh, that’s so cool.
Dave: She sees greatness in a stranger.
Ann: You do that, too, Kathy.
Kathy: You do, too. I do it, yeah; thank you.
Ann: You do.
Kathy: I do it because I think God would compel us to do that, frankly. I think that’s part of my call for identity. We have to know who we are. I believe that children become who we tell them they are. I believe that people—husbands and wives, adults, friends—we become who people tell us we are. If I’m told by somebody—“Kathy, you’re joyful; it’s so much fun to be with you,”—I will be more joyful for the next ten minutes. We’re just called to be the things that other people value.
Ann: Our words have power.
Kathy: They do have great power, and we can learn to do it even better. I think some parents are afraid of pride: “I can’t tell my kid all the things that he is good at; he’ll develop a big head.” I would say to them, “If that happens, then you call it out. Call sin ‘sin.’ But if they don’t know what they’re good at, they won’t do anything good. If they don’t believe they were created to do good, they’ll be mad at God. When they learn He’s the Creator—and they don’t know the good things about them—then they’re drawing the conclusion that: ‘God skipped me on the assembly line,’ which is not true, of course.”
There’s a difference between pride—and pride is believing that your strengths are more important than somebody else’s—pride is not recognizing you have weakness. Pride is owning your strengths and not crediting the Creator for them. It’s not prideful to know what you’re good at. Now, if I stand up and brag about it, and affirm myself in front of people, that’s not right. But don’t be afraid of affirming children and grandchildren and, even, adults for fear that they’ll develop a big head.
Because what they need is a big heart, and a big confidence in themselves, and in God. That comes from knowing what you’re good at.
Ann: That’s so good.
Dave: In some ways, it’s like when they walk out of your house, they’re going to get torn down. Most people are not building them up. So when they walk into your house, build them up, but in the right areas.
Kathy: Yes, sir.
Dave: Don’t lie, but build them up. If they’ve got a gift and a skill, pour it on!
Kathy: I love that, Dave.
Another thing to do in that is to teach them what to do when they’re torn down. “First of all, if you’re with people who are negative and critical, and don’t affirm you, why are you with them? Why would you choose to spend time with naysayers and negative people who can—
Ann: This is especially true with girls. Teenage girls can be cruel.
Kathy: Yes; absolutely.
Ann: But you’re still going back to the same place; so you would ask, “Why are you still…”
Kathy: Yeah, “Why have you chosen…”
Ann: “Why have you chosen…”
Kathy: “… your choice” and “chose” are huge words: “You’ve chosen to put yourself under their authority. Why would you do that?” or “You’ve chosen to spend time with them when I know there are other friends who have also welcomed you in. Why would you do that?”
Ann: What do kids usually say?
Kathy: “I’m not as good as you think I am, Mom. They’re telling me the truth.” Sometimes, they want the low expectation; because they don’t like the pressure to perform.
Sometimes, they don’t know how to get out of that. They don’t know how to, in one of the books I’ve written, I actually teach friendship skills. They don’t know how to end friendships without hurting people, and they don’t want to hurt people. We’re the drop-and-run; we’re just “The unfriend generation” right now. No, it’s not healthy.
Train children: “Somebody said you’re not good at it,” “Well, I’m not very good at that, but I’m learning.” What would you train a grandchild or a child to say when they’re demeaned in public? Sometimes, I would teach children: “It’s a comeback in your mind, even if you don’t say it.”
Ann: I’ve never even thought of this before.
Kathy: You train them to have a comeback: “You don’t know me well enough to say that about me.”
Ann: Okay; so your kids are in a situation—someone says something negative to them—and you would say that?
Kathy: Yeah, in my head.
Ann: Oh, in your head.
Kathy: —in my head. Now, depending upon age and circumstance, if I’m close with these people, and I was teachable, I might even say, “What makes you say that? I wasn’t aware of that.”
I might really, truly be teachable in the moment: “I wasn’t aware I was coming across that way. What did I just do?” “Well, you were just talking all about yourself. And when I was telling you about my story, you didn’t listen; because then, you just went back to your story. That reminds me of a time when I—you didn’t ask me for any details of my story—so you were coming across really self-centered.” “Oh, whoa; you’re right. I’m so sorry. I am interested in you, and I should have asked you for some questions so you would elaborate.” That would be amazing if we would be humble enough to do that.
Sometimes, the situation would be—if somebody says, “Man, you’re clueless,”—”I disagree. I didn’t know the answer to that question, but that doesn’t make me clueless.”
Ann: So you’re coaching your kids how to do this.
Kathy: I’m a big believer in scripting conversations for them.
Ann: I like that!
Kathy: They don’t know what they don’t know. They don’t want to be mean and aggressive; and they don’t want to… —”But what do they say?”—”Could you say, ‘Well, I disagree.’” The simplest thing to do would probably say, “Well, I’m sorry that that’s your opinion of me; I disagree.”
Ann: Has anybody said something negative to you, and you had a script?
Kathy: Oh, yeah. To God be the glory: I don’t hang out with negative people. I don’t associate with people who don’t appreciate who I am. I guess I would say I have a very good friendship circle—and not that they’re not going to call me out—sometimes, they will. Certainly, my accountability team will call sin “sin” anytime I ask them to do that for me.
But yeah, there’s a script in my head. I don’t always say it:
• Because you have to earn the right to communicate that.
• Or maybe, it’s not the right opportunity with the number of people in the room.
• Or there’s no time for a continued conversation.
• Or maybe, I just need to think about it more deeply.
But in my head, I’ll say, “You’re wrong”; because, frankly, sometimes, they are.
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: But versus—I’m thinking of my growing-up years—if somebody would say something to me, it would go in my head; I’d be so stunned. I’d have no comeback. I’d go home, and I’d be crushed.
Kathy: And you’d keep thinking about it.
Ann: That’s all I would think about. And then, it would settle in; and I would think whatever they said is true.
Kathy: And that’s what we can’t allow to have happen.
Ann: Social media does that with our kids.
Kathy: Absolutely; absolutely, which is one reason we shouldn’t let them on
it; because the people there don’t know them well enough to know. They’re just blowing nonsense.
If you’re in a club—this is exactly what girls, in particular, will do—they’ll believe it, because it was told to them; and they must know what they’re talking about—and then, we keep it internally. We don’t share with our mom: “Mom, somebody said this about me; and I am sad,” or “I don’t know what to do with this.”
Or Mom sees the girl crying or sad: “What are you sad about?” “Nothing.” Now, we can make that an easier conversation to have. I would love for us to teach children, and teens, and preteens “The art of the comeback,”—is what I call it.
Ann: That’s an interesting—
Dave: The art of the comeback.
Ann: That’s an interesting conversation with parents and their kids, who are old enough to be—and that it’s not disrespectful—even, you might not ever say it; but it’s in your head: something that will help you to cope with the negativity.
Kathy: Right.
Ann: And I could even say, I could even picture myself, as a teen who had known Jesus, like to talk that over with Jesus.
Kathy: Yes, I was going to say that. To bring it home, and to think about it; but not in a—I assume the right mentality—to think about it, as a woman who wants to be teachable; and then, you take it to the Lord: “Is there any truth here at all?”
Ann: Yes; “Lord, what do You think about me?” “Lord, what do You think about that?”
Dave: —and to be a good friend.
Kathy: Yes; that’s excellent, too.
Dave: They’ll say: “That’s ridiculous,” or “You know what?—something to consider.”
Kathy: Yeah; I think relationally, for adults, as well, I think we can be flippant with each other. We’re all guilty of assuming what something was meant when it wasn’t meant that at all. Do we love ourselves enough to ask for clarification?—
Ann: Yeah, that’s good.
Kathy: —which takes some courage.
Dave: Man, the wisdom of Kathy Koch;—
Kathy: Thank you.
Ann: Whoo!
Dave: —that’s what I’m calling today. Where can our watchers/listeners find you?
Kathy: CelebrateKids.com is our website, and we promote our podcast there. We podcast at the Celebrate Kids with Dr. Kathy podcast channel. And we are on both Facebook and Instagram at Celebrate Kids, Inc. We would be honored if people would want to hang out with us.
Dave: Oh, they will.
Kathy: Thank you.
Ann: You’re such a great friend and resource. We love you.
Kathy: Well, I love you. I love your passion for the community. You’re doing such important work, and it’s an honor to be a part of what you’re doing.
Ann: Thanks, Kathy.
Kathy: Thank you.
Ann: Hey, thanks for watching. If you like this episode,—
Dave: You better like it.
Ann: —just hit that “Like” button.
Dave: And we’d like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the “Subscribe”—I can’t say the word, “subscribe”—hit the “Subscribe” button. I don’t think I can say this word!
Ann: I can subscribe.
Dave: Look at that! You say it so easily. “Subscribe”; there he goes!
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