Forks, Feelings, and IDENTITY | Jonathan Holmes

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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Forks, Feelings, and IDENTITY

Guest:Jonathan Holmes

Release Date:July 10, 2025

Jonathan:You guys will remember, in The Little Mermaid, Ariel collected all these forks; and she doesn’t know what they’re for. Scuttle, the seagull, says, “Oh, those are called dingle hoppers; and the humans use them to brush their hair.” She’s sitting at the dinner table for the first time with Prince Eric. She sees the forks; she starts brushing her hair. Everybody’s looking at her, like, “That’s not what forks are made for.” We have done that with identity.

We think we know what identity is for, and so we use it for our own benefit: “I am what I feel,” “I am what I do.” If we want to know what identity really is, we have to go to the Person who created it, and Who created us; and that’s God.

Dave:Okay, so we got Jonathan Holmes in the studio. Jonathan, I don’t know, do you go by “Buckeye”? You’re an Ohio guy.

Jonathan:I am. I’d go by everything except for “Cleveland Browns,” as we said earlier. So “Go, Buckeyes!” “…Cavaliers!” “…Guardians!” But put Browns a little bit lower on the list.

Dave:The reason I’m asking—yeah, the Browns are way down there—

Jonathan:—way down.

Dave:—and we know what “down there” is with the Detroit Lions all those years.

Jonathan:Yes, you do.

Dave:You guys are living our life. In fact, you went 0 and 16 after we went 0 and 16, a couple of years later.

Ann:It made us feel better.

Dave:—a little bit of empathy. You guys have some empathy for us and our situation.

Ann:Yes, exactly.

Dave:We’re in Michigan now—and we’re Ohio—so I can’t say “Buckeye” in that state.

Jonathan:Oh, I know.

Dave:I run for my life.

Jonathan:Yes.

Dave:Tell our listeners a little bit about—because you’re a father of four girls.

Jonathan:—four girls. I have 16, 14, 12, and 10. I’m in high school, middle school; and my youngest is pulling up the end in elementary school. There’s never a dull day in my house.

Dave:Do you get to talk at dinner?

Jonathan:Rarely. Most of you guys—literally, most times at dinner, I don’t need to say a word—there is so much chatter going on, which is great when we are able to gather for dinner. It’s full of life, full of questions. It’s a great thing being a girl-dad. I absolutely love it.

Ann:How many years have you been married?

Jonathan:We’ve been married 20 years this November. My wife and I’ll be celebrating 20 years.

Ann:That’s a big one.

Jonathan:It is a big one, so we’re pretty excited about it.

Dave:Yeah; well, we’re going to talk, obviously, about identity. A lot of it’s going to be around Grounded in Grace, your book: Helping Kids Build Their Identity in Christ.

Ann:Tell our listeners what you do.

Jonathan:I serve as the Executive Director of a counseling center. We’re based in northeast Ohio; it’s called Fieldstone Counseling. We have brick-and-mortar offices in the northeast Ohio area. We have one in Michigan; one in Columbus.

Through remote counseling, we see people all across the country, all

50 states and 26 different countries. Through technology nowadays, it really has opened so many great doors for people to be able to receive help, whose access was a major issue for them beforehand.

Dave:And obviously, this is sort of helping parents with their kids, which is huge. But identity—you tell me—isn’t it at the center of everything?—every counseling appointment?—every decision?

Jonathan:Yes, I would definitely agree with you. I think identity—and that was one of the reasons why I wrote the book—is so many kids, and teens, and parents were coming in to the counseling room for different issues. Maybe, it was depression; or anxiety; or eating disorders; or suicide. You start to scratch the surface on so many of those mental health issues; underneath all of them really are questions of identity: “Who am I?” “Why am I here?” “What am I supposed to be doing with my life?”

I think a lot of the messages that the world has given to teens and kids today—about “Who you are,” “What’s the purpose of life?”—they’re not working out for kids and teens. We’ve told kids and teens today: “Hey, be whoever you want to be. The sky’s the limit.” And yet, our kids and teens today are facing a mental health crisis like we’ve never seen before. Something’s off; I think underneath it really is this question of identity.

Ann:And with the ages of your girls, you’re living this power.

Jonathan:We are; we definitely are. I think so much of the book is actually for me. Ironically, when I was writing the book—you guys will get a kick out of this—to get them [my children] to kind of read the book, I said, “Hey, I want you to help me find any typos in the book.” Before it was about to go to print, I just said, “Hey, I want you to read the book, and I want you to help me out with it. Give me some examples, or give me some questions.”

It ended up serving multiple purposes: helped give me better feedback; but then, really helped make the book, hopefully, feel very conversational and very true to life.

Ann:Were they relating to it?

Jonathan:I think so; especially, a couple of the chapters. One of the chapters is on “Finding Your Identity in Athletics.” Three of my girls play basketball, and that’s a big identity-maker for them. There’s a lot of pressure, as we were talking about earlier, on kids today in sports.

I just realized: I could even see it in myself when going to games. Certain expectations would just creep up in your heart at the most unexpected times. And you just realize again—it’s not just kids—it’s parents: we want to find our identity through our kids’ performances. Definitely, sports; and then, also academics. Being Asian-American, academics is huge. I found myself, oftentimes, just putting some unnecessary pressures on my kids.

Ann:What’s something that you would say, not even meaning to?

Jonathan:Yeah, my kids will come home with a B or something. I’ll say, “Well, we could do something to get that a little bit higher.” It was so funny—one of her friends; one of her 16-year-old friends came over—she was spending some time with my oldest daughter. She said, “Yeah, B is like an Asian F; so you’ve got to get that up to an A.” I said, “No, it really is.” And then, I realized, “Okay”; I had to repent, internally, and say, “You know what? If a B is the best you can do, then a B is the best you can do.”

Ann:But you’re right, Jonathan; we, as parents, feel the pressure.

Jonathan:We do; we do.

Ann:I remember: I think one of our sons was in soccer; I think he was four years old. We were getting him in this little soccer league. One of the parents said, “Oh, you better start now; because if you don’t, he’s going to be so far out of it. You won’t even get on a team.”

Dave:Four years old.

Ann:What in the world? It’s crazy.

Jonathan:It’s wild; oh, it’s totally wild. And when you can step outside of it, and you can kind of see it in other people; and then, the Lord convicts: you’re like, “Oh my goodness; I’m that person. I’m that parent.” You can get a good laugh out of it.

But we do, as parents, we can draw our identity from our kids—how they’re doing—their performance on the athletic field, in the classroom, in the workplace.

Dave:That leads me to this question: “If I’m trying to help my son or daughter understand identity properly—even from God and from His Word—

Ann:—formation.

Dave:—but I don’t live it or understand it, what do I do? Can I actually teach that in a way that’s good if I don’t get it?”

Jonathan:Yes, I think you can. In the book, I talk about the way that the world has approached identity. Historically, it had been: “You are what you do,” “Your family of origin. If your dad was a baker, guess what? You’re going to grow up; you’re going to be a baker,” “Bring honor to your family; just be a good person.” That was kind of the old way of forming identity.

Ann:“Make your parents proud.”

Jonathan:Yeah; “Make your parents proud.” That’s what you wanted to do. There wasn’t a lot of room for creativity or kind of breaking out of the mold. You just did whatever it was your parents did and what brought them honor.

Today, it’s switched around. You don’t really listen to a person of authority. You get to choose it—you get to dig deep into your feelings; figure out who it is that you want to be—and then, go out into the world and live that truth. You’ll see that on the markets everywhere: “Be your authentic self,” or “Live your true self.”

Ann:Some of us, as parents, and some of you, as listeners, are thinking, “Wait; well, yeah, that’s true.” I wrote it down even; because modern identity is now—listen to this—“In modern identity, the determiner of identity has moved from something outside of you to something inside of you, your inner voice.”

Dave:You didn’t write this down; you’re quoting Jonathan.

Ann:Yeah, I did; I’m quoting this.

Dave:Josh is sitting over there, like, “I wrote that.”

Ann:See, I’m saying I’m writing it down what he said; because this is so good.

Dave:Okay; okay.

Ann:“Your inner voice is now the decisive factor of determining who you are and what you want to be.” It’s like: “What do I feel?” “Who am I?” “I can be whoever I want to be”; and that can sound good, but—

Jonathan:It can sound good, but it has some real significant downsides. I’ll give you one example: “Your feelings change.” We are telling generations of kids and teens, “Hey, dig deep inside your feelings, and figure out who you want to be.” And we’re telling three- and four- and five-year-olds that.

But as you guys know: kids’ preferences change, literally, by the hour. One day you can feed them macaroni and cheese; and the next day, it’s like they hate that meal; and they want something different. We’re telling kids to ground their identity—the most important aspect of who they are—in something that’s not stable, that’s not secure.

Now, feelings are good; God made us with emotions. It’s a great part of being image-bearers of God; but our feelings aren’t stable enough to build our entire sense of who we are. That outside voice, again, historically, had belonged to our parents; but sometimes, parents get it wrong, as we’ve said earlier.

That outside voice really has to be God’s voice—God’s voice, telling us: “This is who you are,” “This is why I’ve made you,” “This is your purpose in life,”—that’s never going to change, despite your feelings, despite your performance on the athletic court, despite the grades that you get, what college you get into. This is the truest thing about you. I think kids and teens really need to hear that message today.

Ann:How do you communicate that specifically to your girls? What’s that sound like? And maybe, give an example of the traditional, the modern; and then, the God-given.

Jonathan:In the traditional identity-formation process, if I was talking to one of my girls—especially, about grades or academics—I’d say, “Hey, don’t you want to get into a good college? You want to be a good person. All your other friends are going to Harvard; and they’re going to Yale; and they’re going to Princeton. Don’t you want to bring honor to our family and be a good person?” That motivation could seep out there in that type of conversation.

Ann:Parents are going to listen; they’re like, “Oh, check. That’s what I’ve done.”

Jonathan:Okay; I know, but don’t worry; there’s hope.

On the modern identity side, we can tell kids and teens—there is a good part of: “Hey, be who you want; pursue your dreams,”—but you can take that too far. A lot of kids don’t have, I think, the maturity and the wherewithal at ten, eleven, twelve years old to really understand: “What is it that they want to pursue?” And so it’s all feeling-based, which because it’s feeling-based, doesn’t create that stable, secure foundation.

What we’re really trying to push kids and teens towards is: “Who is God?” and “What does He say about you?” Just the other day, one of my girls was about to play basketball. I think she was a little down on herself from practice. I just told her/I said, “Listen, at the end of the day, regardless of if you win or lose, we love you no matter what. And God loves you no matter what. Our love for you, our devotion to you; God’s love for you, God’s devotion towards you is not based on how many points you make, how many buckets you score. Again, she kind of rolls her eyes, here and there—because she hears it so much—but it’s that message on repeat, all of her life, that over time, will eventually form a narrative in her mind that: “Listen, at the end of the day, God’s voice has to be the loudest voice in my heart and my mind.”

Dave:You feel like for her, or any boy or girl—let’s say middle school, high school; and of course, it starts earlier—

Jonathan:Oh, it does.

Dave:—can a parent’s voice; can God’s Word, God’s voice trump the voice of their peers and, even, social media?

Ann:—and the culture?

Dave:Everybody else is saying, “Yeah, your dad may say; but the truth is: if you don’t score 12 tonight, we lose; and you’re not going to the next level.”

Jonathan:I definitely think that we’re in a competitive media market for sure; and our voices, oftentimes, do get drowned out. That’s where I think parents have to do a little bit of an audit on what kind of voices are coming into their kids’ and teens’ lives. Not that you have to go live like a hermit, and cut yourself off from all media; but just even, a lot times, parents are really in the dark about the voices and about the narratives that are coming in. They’re kind of clueless as to what their kids are listening to, watching, or reading. Maybe, that’s even a first step for a parent is just to know: “What are the narratives that my kids are listening to and taking in?”

Ann:And do you think those are prevalent, Jonathan?—with the modern; it’s everywhere.

Jonathan:Oh, you guys, it’s everywhere: from the marketing of American Girl dolls to young kids; “Pick whoever it is that you want to be”; to sports, to academics. It’s pervasive; it’s everywhere.

Ann:You’re even talking about video games and what girls are wearing.

Jonathan:Oh, my goodness.

Ann:And then, what the dolls are looking like.

Jonathan:Absolutely; absolutely. And it’s one of those things where it’s so subtle you don’t even recognize it because it is everywhere from selling fast food ads to, again, one author said, culture is constantly promoting a vision of the good life: “This is what the good life is,” “This is the life that you want to have,”—it’s shiny; it’s exciting; it’s not dull; it’s something that you want and that’s attractive to kids.

I think, if parents don’t find creative and consistent ways to kind of identify those narratives; and then, to counterbalance those with a biblical narrative, we’re going to lose the battle at the end of the day.

Dave:It’s interesting: when you’re talking about navigating, as a parent, what kind of input your kids are hearing. I know there’s other parents who say: “There’s no danger, and you’re isolated them from the world.” I remember—when you said that, I remember sitting in a locker room with some of the quarterbacks before we’re going to play the Saints—we’re in New Orleans. Matthew Stafford’s there, Sean Hill, Dan Orlowski. Matthew Stafford makes this comment—again, we’re going to play a game in

30 minutes—somehow, they get in this discussion about social media. Matthew just says, “I never ever look.” “Whatcha talking about?” He goes, “I don’t want to know what people are saying about me.”

Ann:—or even in the news.

Dave:“I do not want to know—I will never—I don’t have Facebook; I don’t have an account.” Of course, everybody today knows his wife does; and she posts quite a bit. I was: “Way to go”; because as good as you are at this level, there’s still all these people [with negative takes].

Our kids are fighting that worse than we are; so to help them say: “It’s okay to not [be on social].” I watched American Idol the other night. Carrie Underwood, literally, says, “I post, and I ghost.” I’m like, “What does she mean by that?” She goes, “I’ll post something to help people. I never ever look at comments.” I’m like, “She knows, as great as she is, there’s going to be negatives.” Our kids, every day they walk down the hall, it’s negative. Their identity is being shaped by those voices, not ours.

Ann:One of the things I used to do when the boys were young. We’d pray; put them to bed; maybe, read a book, a devotional, or whatever. But I remember—they were little when I started this; maybe, three or four—I would say, “I can’t wait to see what God has for you.” And they would say—as a little child—”Is it a present?” I said, “It’s kind of because, when you discover who He made you to be, who God made you to be, and what God has put in you as your gifts and strengths, it’ll be the best present you’ve ever had.”

Jonathan:Absolutely; absolutely.

Ann:And they said, “How do we get it?” I said, “As you get older, and you get closer to Him, you’ll discover it; He’ll let you know.”

That’s different from: “Hey, you can be”—it’s true; there’s a good part of: “You can be whoever you want to be,”—but it’s really—“whoever God wants you to be.”

Jonathan:Exactly; exactly. And I love that analogy of a present, because that’s really the core of gospel identity is a gift that is received, not achieved. It is a gift in that God gives us this identity; it’s not something that we have to earn. It’s not something that we have to feel our way towards, that we have to earn our way towards, that we have to score a certain score for; it truly is a gift that He gives to us.

I actually think that that’s the most freeing kind of identity because it’s not something that you can lose. If you have a bad day, you have a bad day. On social media, if you have a bad day, it could be the end of your career; it could be the end of your life, as it were. I don’t know about you guys—but I’m seeing, culturally, a little bit of a shift—where I think a lot of kids and teens are beginning to see some of the disillusionment of what the world has offered. You see people going without their phones, or closing social media accounts, or—

Dave:—dumb phones.

Jonathan:Yeah, going back to dumb phones; because they realize: “Okay, the world has promised me ‘X’; and they’ve not delivered on it. Maybe, I need to be open to listening to my parents,” or “…going back to Scripture and finding out what the Bible has to say about who I am.”

Dave:Talk to our listeners, especially, and help us understand: “What does God say about our identity?” One of the things I’ve said, as a preacher for

30 years—I probably said it way too much, so our congregation was like, “Okay, we know what you believe,”—is that I would say it this way: “There’s two beliefs that we all carry that determine every decision, every single day. Belief one is theology: ‘What do we believe about God?—His attributes, who He is.’ Belief two is identity: ‘What do we believe about ourselves?’”

True or false?—I don’t know.

Jonathan:That’s absolutely true.

Dave:I said: “Man, if we think God is distant, angry, we’re going to live in fear. If we see him as a loving Father, who’s present and encourages, like, ‘Wow!’” But then, at the other side is: “What do I believe about myself?” When I say that, it’s like, “Well, then, now I got to teach people: ‘Who is God?’ ‘Who am I?’”

So when people ask you about identity, what do you say?

Jonathan:I think your two points are absolutely critical because knowledge about God leads us to knowledge of ourselves. So I should have you credit in the book, I should have put:—

Dave:—whatever; whatever.

Jonathan:—”Dave Wilson; these are the two truths that you need to know.”

Ann:Does that make you feel better?

Dave:I don’t think it’s very original. I did not originate that. Probably Tim Keller or some other brain.

Jonathan:We’ll put that in the second edition.

Dave:Yeah, there you go; there you go.

Jonathan:The starting point for me is Genesis 1:26 where it says, “Let Us make man in Our image.” The core part of our identity is that we are image-bearers of God. Here’s why that is so foundational to identity; is that we realize, then, we don’t exist for ourselves or by ourselves. We are created beings who are created by a Divine Creator for a purpose. Everything that we do, everything that we say—the things that we value, things that we love, that we’re after—ultimately, have to be informed by Whom we were created for and Whom we were created by.

I give a silly illustration like this: my kids all grew up watching Disney movies. We love The Little Mermaid. You guys will remember, in The Little Mermaid, Ariel collected all these forks; and she doesn’t know what they’re for. She goes up to talk to Scuttle, the seagull; and he says, “Oh, those are called dingle hoppers. The humans use them to brush their hair.” She gets super pumped and excited. Flash forward to: she’s sitting at the dinner table for the first time with Prince Eric, and she sees the forks at the dinner setting. She picks it up, and she starts brushing her hair. Everybody’s looking at her, like, “Weirdo; that’s not what forks are made for. Forks are for bringing food to your mouth to eat.” I think we have done that with identity.

We think we know what identity is for, and so we use it for our own benefit. Again: “I am what I feel,” “I am what I do,”—whatever cultural narrative is being kind of pedaled to us. But if we want to know what identity really is, we have to go to the Person who created it, and Who created us; and that’s God. God gets the final say on who we are and what He says about us too.

This is another piece of identity, that I think sometimes gets missed out, is that God’s Word to us is a good word. Sometimes, I think we see God’s identity as somewhat being restrictive, like, “Okay, it’s a bunch of rules and regulations.” I think we miss out on the positive vision of identity that God gives us. In Genesis 1:28, the very first words that God gives to Adam and Eve are words of invitation, not words of prohibition. He says, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.” God’s not a God of “No’s,” like, “No, you can’t do this.” God’s actually a God who invites us into His redemptive program, to say, “Hey, I want you to flourish here on the earth that I’ve designed and created you for.”

Ann:It’s crazy; as you’re talking about that, I can remember—I didn’t grow up going to church, or in a Christian home; I had good parents—but I remember being eight years old. I had already gone through sexual abuse; but I can remember, in my bed, thinking, “Why am I here?”

Dave:I had never had that thought until 20 years old. She told me that when we were first dating.

Jonathan:It’s probably, a girl-thing, Dave.

Dave:I don’t know what it was; like, “You thought about that when you were eight? I just wanted to throw a football.”

Ann:But I think that’s a question that, at some point, we ask, “Why am I here?”; we’re looking for answers.

Jonathan:We are; we are. I was on the phone last night with one of my daughters. She’s having a particular struggle; and she said, “Why? What is all of this worth? Why should I keep trying in this one particular area?” We had a really good conversation. I said, “Well, here’s why it’s worth something—it’s worth enduring; it’s worth persevering—because on the other side of it, I think is God’s good path for you. Is it going to be hard for you right now?—absolutely.” Middle school is a brutal time for girls right now. But there is something worth following Christ, and obeying Him, and pressing through the hard.

Those are big existential questions that people are asking: “Why am I here?” “Why did this happen?” “What is life for?” I think that culture—the answers that culture is putting up right now—are shiny and exciting, but they fade away really quickly.

Ann:What do you think? What are the shiny and exciting things you think it says?

Jonathan:I think one of the things is just: “Live for yourself; be whoever you want to be.” I think people hear that—again, there’s a good part about that: ‘Pursue your dreams,’ et cetera—but you realize, “Okay, well, everybody else is also trying to pursue their dreams.” It can become a vicious cycle of competitiveness, and everybody’s trying to constantly become a better version of themselves. You realize: “If the goal is to be your best self, or your happiest self, well, that’s a never-ending journey: “You could always be happier,” “You could always be richer,” “You could always be better looking,” “You could always be a better…”—you fill in the blank.

It’s kind of that rat race that I think is actually driving so much of the depression and the anxiety. The suicide that we’re seeing is because people get to the end of the day, and they realize: “Why am I doing all of this?” “What is this for?” They’ll post something on social media, and people will say horrible and hateful things about them. They kind of throw their hands up in the air, and say, “I give up. I don’t want to keep doing this.”

And that’s where, again, I think coming in with biblical truth about who we are can provide a stable, secure foundation for kids and teens today.

Dave:Growing up, I never probably even thought of the word, “identity.”

Jonathan:Right; yes.

Dave:And again, some of that was nobody’s talking about it. I’m not saying I should or shouldn’t not. I just never even connected that my identity—and I didn’t even realize it was connected to success on sports fields—I was a musician and a singer in a band; so being approved that way. I’ve shared this here before—when Ann and I are in our first year of marriage—we’re at the University of Nebraska as a chaplain. We’re on staff with Cru, basically, as a missionary under Athletes in Action. And now, I’m being introduced. A year ago/nine months ago, I’m playing college football, and I had national stats. Right now, I’m being introduced: “Hey, this is Dave Wilson. What do you do again? Oh, he’s on staff with Athletes in Action”; that’s it! Nobody knew: “Oh, I used to…”

I come home to my wife—this is so embarrassing—I say to Ann, “Hey, nobody knows I was somebody. I was pretty good, and I can’t say it: ‘Hey, I used to…’ because I look like an insecure loser.” I, literally said, “Could you, when you’re with me, could you go, ‘Hey, by the way, last year, Dave was leading the nation’?” Know what she says? She loves me; so “Yeah, honey, I’ll do that for you.”

How lame is that?—that my entire identity is what I used to do, and I’m trying to prove it. Again, obviously, I had to go on a journey to find out what you just said: “God says you’re precious; you’re loved; you’re

forgiven; you’re a son of Mine.” It’s like all that’s imago Dei: “You’re made in My image.” None of that seemed to matter: “All that matters is what other people think of me—they don’t care about that stuff—they care about this.” Is that the normal journey for most people?

Jonathan:You know what? When you’re putting it like that, I think it is. I don’t think a lot of kids and teens today are thinking about—unless you’ve got some deep philosophical thinkers—nobody’s thinking, in their bedroom—

Dave:Like you [Ann] at eight years old.

Jonathan:— yeah, maybe like Ann—but everybody functions out of an identity. Everybody lives out an identity.” You have to, right? On April 15, we all pay our taxes—why?—because we live in this country, and that’s what the law says we have to do. I can’t wake up on April 15, and say, “You know what? I don’t identify today as a taxpayer. I’m just going to do whatever it is I want.” No, that’s a part of our identity; and that’s what we have to do as a result.

All of us live and act out of an identity. It’s just, oftentimes, more back burner; we’re not thinking about it until we talk about it. Which is actually one of the reasons why I think, if parents were to talk about it, maybe it would move to the front burner of kids’ minds. Maybe kids would begin to say/maybe teens would say: “Okay, why do I do what I do?” or “Who am I doing these things for?” One of the things that I try to say in the book is: “Before you ask—‘Who am I?’—ask, ‘Whose am I?’” Because that’s actually the question behind the identity question. I can’t answer: “Who am I?” until I first know: “Whose am I?” and “I belong to the Lord; I’m created by the Lord.”

Dave:Well, play that out even more. Agree or disagree with this statement: “Almost everybody”—I’ll say, “everybody”; that way you can either agree or disagree—“Everybody lives for identity or from identity.”

Jonathan:Oh, 100 percent agree.

Dave:Yeah, so what’s it mean?

Jonathan:Everybody is moving and operating out of some type of identity formation. It’s like the operating system that we have on our MacBooks, on our iPads, and on our phones; it’s just constantly there, running in the background.

It [identity formation] informs the decisions we make. It informs why you make certain choices in the day. It informs the words that you say to the people you’re interacting with: “Are you going to be more self-focused and about your dreams?” “Are you going to be more others-centered or others-focused?” It informs how you steward your time, your energy, your resources. It helps inform what’s most important to you: what’s really worth you giving your time, energy, and attention to? That’s all coming from questions of identity.

If sports is the most important thing, and if stats and numbers are the most important thing to you—and form the core sense of who you are—then every free moment’s going to be on that driveway, shooting hoops, right? You’re not going to have time for friends; you’re not going to have time for anything else; that will become your life. You might not know it at that moment; but what’s driving that, again, is that sense of identity: “I am what I do,” or “I am what I feel.”

Ann:I remember—I think it was probably 15 years ago—I was leading a high school small group, which was fun for me. We had three sons; they were all in high school. Man, I was shocked by the pressure these girls were feeling. They were busier than my friends, who were in their 40s. “What are these girls?”—they have so much: they’re all in sports; they’re all in some competitive [team], or cheer, or something. We’re in a neighborhood where our high school was very strong, academically. The pressure that they felt with schoolwork, with getting into the best colleges in the country.

Dave:You’re [Jonathan] right there.

Ann:Yeah, you are there; and you’re probably seeing it in your girl’s friends. As you’re talking about how identity formation is enslaving—it can be the modern identity formation is fragile—and it’s performative, all of it. I thought that as I was reading your book; I thought, “That’s what they were all feeling—that push toward—and ultimately, you say, it’s an illusion.”

Jonathan:Oh, it is. I’ll give you a great illustration on that. So Taylor Swift, who has got to be the most authoritative figure on all things.

Dave:What’s her name again?

Jonathan:Taylor Swift.

Dave: Taylor Swift?

Jonathan:I don’t know if you’ve heard of her or not; but in 2022, she gave the commencement speech at a New York university. She has this great line in her speech; she says, “Here’s the best news I want to give all of you. You can be whatever it is that you want to be.” And then, she says, “But now, I want to give you the bad news. You have to figure that out all by yourself.” It was kind of this “Aha” moment of: even a blind squirrel can find a nut. She says something that’s really truly profound, and she probably doesn’t even know it.

That captures a dynamic of identity—it sounds so promising; it sounds so freeing—but it is so enslaving because guess who now becomes the inner task master for identity?—you do. You are constantly setting up these standards, these rules, these objectives, these goals that you must fulfill in order to be this person you want to be. It’s this never-ending rat race.

It’s, again, whatever stream it is—whether it’s your looks; whether it’s your sports or academics; or just even: “I just want to be a good person,”—you become the sole authority and arbiter of: “Have you achieved this?” “Have you done enough?” Again, I think, when you look at the rates of burnout and exhaustion that you’re seeing amongst young adults, you see people who have tried that method, and have come up, I think, even more despairing, more disillusioned than when they began.

Ann:Let’s get into this sexuality part of this; because: “You can be whoever you want to be.”

Jonathan:—and “You are your feelings. So if you feel this, then, you have to follow that feeling. That feeling now becomes your identity.”

Now, again, probably 50 to 100 years ago, that would not have been the main mode of how we interact or operate with our feelings. You and I probably, on any given day, feel a certain feeling and recognize that as: “Okay, I’m not going to follow myself on that feeling: at 10 o’clock at night, I want to have a half gallon of Haagen-Dazs ice cream.”

Ann:Jonathan, I would like to do that every night!

Dave:I do too!

Jonathan:Exactly! But there’s something inside me that says, “Oh, no; I can’t follow that feeling. Eventually, that will become an unhealthy practice for me.” We probably have a little bit of a better handle on realizing: “You can’t follow every feeling or impulse.”

Culturally, today, it’s the exact opposite: “You are your feelings,” and “Especially, when it comes to romantic sexual attraction, that becomes the defining characteristic of your identity.” Again, 50 to 100 years ago, that would’ve been very bizarre. Nobody would’ve introduced themselves as: “Oh, my name’s So-and-so; and I am a heterosexual,”—fill in the blank.

Ann:“My pronoun is…”

Jonathan:“My pronoun…” We never would’ve thought as our sexuality as the most important aspect of our identity. The pressure that kids and teens are facing today to figure that out is leading to some disastrous consequences, I think.

Dave:What do you encourage a parent to do if he’s got a daughter, who says, “I think I’m a boy,” or a son who says, “I think I’m a girl.” “I’m 10 years old/

11 years old; I want therapy,” “…I want…”—maybe, they’re not going to go that far—“I’m going to start living and dressing like the other sex.”

Jonathan:Well, the first thing is: “Start the conversation. You got to draw out before you dive in.” I think a lot of parents go for the wrong goals in the immediate conversation, which typically is to shut down the conversation and issue a rule or a regulation.

Dave:We always say, “Don’t freak out.”

Jonathan:Yes; “Okay, don’t freak out.”

Ann:What does it sound like? What would somebody sound like if they’re doing that?

Jonathan:“We’re taking away your phone,” “We’re taking away your phone.”

Ann:If they say something like—

Jonathan:—“This is all coming from those friends you’ve been hanging out with; you’re losing your phone,” “No video games for the next month.

Ann:“It’s all coming from the video games.”

Jonathan:Exactly. What we do then is—and it’s a natural impulse for parents, right?—because we want control.

Ann:It’s protection.

Jonathan:It’s protection. We get nervous; we get freaked out. That’s great advice, Dave: “Don’t freak out.”

Dave:You can go in the other room, freak out.

Jonathan:Yes!

Ann:—by yourself.

Dave:Then, come back and respond.

Jonathan:Yes, go scream in a pillow. Go role play with your husband; say, “Hey, let’s practice the conversation.”

Ann:Yes!

Jonathan:But yeah, don’t freak out. Kids are intuitive; they pick that up. I’m telling parents, all the time: “Draw out before you dive in.”

Dave:That’s good.

Jonathan:Draw out with questions: “Who told you that?” “Why do you think that?” And even some of those narratives—like a boy comes home, and says: “Hey, I think I’m a girl,” or “I want to do this,”—just the simple question of: “Well, who told you that? Who told you that, if you want to be in theater,” or “…if you like this, that you have to suddenly change genders?” or “…that you have to completely upend your sexual orientation? Who told you that?” and “Why do you believe that you have to follow that person or obey that voice? What makes that voice more important than our voice?”

Ann:If a child says/if a teen says: “Because this is who I am. I’m supposed to follow who I am, and this is who I am now. And if you don’t agree, then you don’t love me.”

Jonathan:On that, I would say: “Do a little bit of a thought experiment with me: ‘What happens if you’re wrong? What happens if you’re wrong? What happens if these feelings that you have—which I don’t want to deny; I don’t want to deny and shut you down, that you do have these feelings—but could your feelings be wrong?—or maybe, “wrong” might seem like a strong word for your generation—what if they’re off a little bit? Do you want to dedicate your entire next few years of life dedicated to this one thing that you’re holding really firmly to?—what if you’re wrong? Could you be wrong?’”

Just introducing that level of doubt into the conversation can open up the doorway, to say, “Hey, your feelings are going to change.” That’s why, even now when you look at how kids and teens are identifying, the biggest bucket that kids are identifying with is they don’t want to put a label on it. They want to be creative and expansive, and have room to be able to maneuver amongst the alphabet soup of the spectrum; because they don’t want to be pinned down. That’s why we have to keep adding more and more letters to the acronym to accommodate an ever-increasing amount of identities.

I was talking to a youth group a couple of months ago. A girl, who was a junior, came up. She was with her mom, and she said, “A lot of my friends at lunch were asking me: ‘How did I identify, sexually?’” The girl said that she got really nervous, and she didn’t know what to say; so she just didn’t say anything. And she said, “All my friends said, ‘Oh, well, if you don’t know, you’re bisexual; you’re bisexual.’” And she said, “Now, everybody at school thinks that I’m bisexual; but I’m not. I just didn’t want to say anything.”

In that moment, that captures where we’re at today as a culture. We are telling kids and teens today: “Hey, you’re making the choice. You’re following your feelings.” But who’s telling them that?—it’s actually the culture around them. When I talk about modern identity as an illusion, that’s the illusion. Part of it is kids and teens today think that they’re being pioneers, and charting their own identity; but they’re simply obeying the cultural narratives that are around them and just following those. So now, this young girl is being told, by all of her friends: “You’re bisexual,” and she’s not—that’s not how she would identify.

Ann:What has she done with that? Did her mom tell you?

Jonathan:Well, the mom said it’s been horrible for her mental health; not surprising. She says she feels really awkward now about her friends. People are looking at her differently. We tried to have a brief conversation about— some different things that she could do to help her daughter—that her daughter could also do.

It just reminded me, in terms of like you were talking about earlier, the pressures that kids and teens are facing today, especially as it relates to gender and sex. It’s something that I don’t think that we had to face when we were that age.

Dave:What would you say parents are doing that contributes to gender dysphoria—or not doing—anything come to your mind?—like: “Hey, this would be helpful for a parent to understand,” “Be careful about this, and be careful about that.”

Jonathan:I think, sometimes, I would say parents who may come from an older generation or more conservative background—I think, sometimes, we could probably have too strict of gender stereotypes around: “Here’s what women do…” “Here’s what women like…” “Here’s what women wear…” “Here’s what men do…” “Here’s what men like…” I think, sometimes, those can be more culturally-informed rather than biblically-informed. We realize that, in Scripture, we see a vast variety of cultures. Scripture is a cross-cultural book; it reaches and touches every culture in ethnicity and background. While things might be more culturally male or female for us, that might look totally different somewhere else in another part of the world.

I would say: “A lot of times, parents I think need to reevaluate or just even evaluate their own beliefs and standards as it relates to masculinity and femininity. Simply ask, ‘Are those biblically-informed or are those more culturally-informed?’”

Dave:One of those, when you say that, I think my generation—and I don’t think we say it as much now; although, some still do—would say: “Boys are into rough sports and trucks,” and “Girls are into frilly little dresses.” There’s a girl, like Ann, who is very athletic, going, “That’s not me.” This day, she might be thinking—

Ann:Yeah, then I would’ve said, “I’m a tomboy.” But if I were in this generation, I’d think, “Oh, maybe, I am a boy.”

Jonathan:Ann, there was a great article, probably eight or ten years ago, in The Atlantic; I think it was. It was a woman who had a tomboy. Basically, the article was saying: “My daughter’s not transgender; she’s just a tomboy. She just enjoys certain things that maybe, culturally, we have assigned to be more masculine or men’s interests.” She said, “Just leave her alone; she’s just living her life.” I thought it was courageous, especially in our culture, for her to be able to speak up and say that.

I think that that’s an important thing to note: that those types of interests, again, don’t tend to be gender specific. We just have assigned that level of [activity], like, “Well, only boys do this,” or “…girls do this.” One of the things that I’ll point to, even biblically, is: “When you look at the book of Exodus, you see these people, who are artisans and craftsmen; and they’re males. We typically think of people, who are more the creative/artistic types, as either more feminine or gay, even. When you look at the Bible, some of the most creative musician-style people are men. David is a strong warrior, but he’s playing music; he’s writing poetry.”

Ann:The person who got assigned to build and create the tabernacle was one of the first people who was filled with the Holy Spirit of God. So he must have been such a creative.

Jonathan:Absolutely. So when we lay down hard-and-fast gender stereotypes—I had a family in the counseling room—and they were really concerned that their young daughter didn’t want to wear a dress. She only wanted to be in pants. One of the things that I tried to work with parents in the counseling room, is I say, “Evaluate your reaction. Do you underreact, or do you overreact?” And they were more—

Ann:That’s good for all of us, as parents.

Jonathan:They were more in the overreaction. They were going to put their daughter in counseling; start making her wear dresses. I just said, “What would just keeping tabs on this look like? What would it look like to ask good questions before you lay down certain standards and whatnot?”

That’s a good example of how we all have to do an internal heart check on ourselves, to ask ourselves, “Okay, how am I approaching this? Am I going to actually cause more harm, more confusion by trying to put them into a particular box rather than just celebrating the way that God designed and created them?”

Ann:One of the things I used to say to our boys, and I say it to our grandkids too, is I’ll affirm their sexuality as they’re little, even before five: “I’m so glad that God made you a girl; that’s so interesting and fun. He has something for you, as a girl, that He’s put inside of you.” And the same with a boy: “I am so glad that God made you, on purpose, as a boy.” Is that okay to say? Can we say that?

Jonathan:Ann, I think that’s so good. The other day, we were at dinner. One of my daughters said something about she has a lot of cousins, who are my nephews. She said, “It’s just so much funner being a boy.” I said, “Well, why do you think that?” She goes, “Oh, they just have so much fun”; she rattled off a few examples. I said, “But it is so good that you’re a girl too. Girls can have just as much fun as guys can.” We all got a good laugh at it.

I think, whenever you can positively affirm that, I think parents—again, when we’re talking about: “How do we help shape identity and form it?”—it’s those little moments. It’s those little moments at the dinner table; in carpool; on your way to events, where those conversations bubble up to the surface. You’re planting the seed.

Ann:I remember one of our grandkids—his mom was pregnant—and he said, “I wish I was a girl, so I could have babies.” I said, “Oh, well, you’ll be a dad someday,” and “You have to have a dad who makes babies.” He said, “I want like 50 of them,” And I said, “Oh, that’s so interesting. I wonder if you’ll have a lot of kids; and maybe, you’ll do something that you’re going to impact kids that God put in you. Maybe you’ll be a school teacher, or a doctor, or you’ll adopt a whole bunch of kids.” Suddenly, instead of feeling like, “Oh, I can’t have a baby”; “I could have multiple children, in God’s design.”

I think, as parents, we’re listening with those ears of speaking identity of Christ into our kids.

Jonathan:Yes; yes. We have to be speaking those words of life to our kids as early as we can and as often as we can. One of the struggles I think that parents have with that is the way that they envision those conversations: they’re sitting down at a table with a Bible and a notebook, and their kids are across from them. If that’s how you do it, great; hats off to it. But I think it’s, a lot of times, in these smaller one-off conversations that are very unexpected, where you really have to rely on the power of the Spirit in that moment to fill you with wisdom, to fill you with knowledge, to fill you with discernment. When a question comes up that you don’t know how to answer, to be humble enough to say, “I don’t know. Let me think about that; let me get back to you on that,” “Let me talk to your mom, because she probably has the answer.”

Dave:“Listen to the FamilyLife Today podcast—

Jonathan:Yes; “Listen to Dave and Ann Wilson, because they’ve got the answers.”

Dave:—”Jonathan Holmes: this very session.”

That was one of my questions: “Do you think it’s harder today for our kids and for parents?” One of the stats in your book is: “Trans has gone up, doubled in five years.”

Jonathan:Oh, it’s doubled. The rates at which you see kids and teens identifying as trans are skyrocketing. There’s one big date that a lot of sociologists are tracking it back to; it’s 2008, which was when the iPhone was invented.

You kind of see all the charts tracking different things. We’re seeing—with sexual orientation confusion, gender dysphoria, mental health: it’s kind of somewhat flatlined—and then, you get to 2008; and it’s sharp upward.

Ann:Really?

Jonathan:Yes; again, it’s not that all of those problems are directly tied to kids having phones or whatnot. What it has done is it has made available to kids and teens an amount of voices and influences that, before that, I don’t think that they had access to. Now, at the palm of their hand, they can be listening to a social media influencer in LA, or in London, or in Chicago, or New York. The access that kids and teens have now—to so many different influential streams and voices—I definitely think is a game-changer, that when we were growing up, we just didn’t have that.

Dave:Oh, yeah. I was thinking, “A couple weeks ago was Easter; you’re listening to this months later. When we recorded this—and I’m preaching on Easter—in one part of my sermon, I was saying some apologetics about defending that this was a true historical act. I said, “Here’s the thing, parents: if your son or daughter, sitting beside you, has a phone, they’re hearing everything. They can look up everything I’m saying right now and hear the opposite view by very intelligent people, who are going to tell them, ‘You’re preacher’s wrong.’” That never happened 50 years ago.

You didn’t even debate me unless you really wanted to go do your homework. Now, it’s [a quick flip of the phone sound]. And by the way, I said, “Check out those sources. They’re not usually very good; some of them are really good.” That’s the world our kids are living in. It’s bombarding different thoughts about my sexuality; who I am as a boy or girl; what I should do—my athletics, my academics—it’s crazy!

Ann:Well, it makes us want to hide; we want to hide from the world. We want to take our children and live in a commune. You’re not saying to do that.

Jonathan:No, absolutely not.

Ann:What are some just practical things that we can—

Dave:Take them out of school? Take them out of—

Ann:—take away their phones, take away the TVs—you’re doing it right now.

Jonathan:Yeah, we are doing—one of the first things, going back to what we said earlier—just identify your own instinct towards these kind of problems: “Are you an overreactor or an underreactor?”

Ann:That’s a good reminder.

Jonathan:A lot of times—

Dave:—under [reactor].

Jonathan:Yes, exactly.

Ann:—over [reactor].

Jonathan:A lot of times, I see that dynamic happen in marriage all the time. A mom and a dad will bring in their teen or bring me a counseling issue. You can see the mom and the dad aren’t on the same page, which I think that’s even Step One: realizing, “Okay, this is actually a unity issue for us as husband and wife. We need to get on the same page. We need to listen to one another. We need to be having conversations. If we go into this conversation, with our kid and teen, on two different pages, they’re going to drive a Mack truck through that.”

Ann:Oh, yeah; you’re right.

Jonathan:They’re going to play; they’re smart. They’re smart little kids. A lot of the work first seems to be done with you. Honestly, we do a ton of work with kids and adolescents. Most of my counselors would tell you: “Most of the work needs to be done with the parents.” We need to do some of the work first, as parents, asking the Lord to help us.

Ann:Dave and I/it’s kind of good that we’re—Dave is like: “Everything’s great,” “Everything’s fine. They’re doing great.”

Jonathan:“They’re fine.”

Ann:I tend to overreact; but when we come together, it’s a good balance.

Jonathan:Oh, it is a good balance.

Ann:But if we don’t come together with our kids, in the moment, you’re right;—

Dave:Although, I found out—

Ann:—they’ll conquer and divide.

Jonathan:They will; they will.

Ann:—divide and conquer.

Dave:Jonathan, I’ve found out she’s usually right.

Jonathan:Oh, yes; yes.

Ann:But I—

Dave:Stop that. It’s like, “Oh, there was more going on there than I wanted to see or admit.”

Ann:It was good for me to rest. And you’re like, “God’s got them,” “God’s got them.”

Jonathan:Yes, so that would be one thing: “Identify where you’re at.”

The second thing is: “Be involved with your kids.” This sounds so simple, right? Sounds so straightforward. But I think we have given up a lot of relational capital with our kids to other people—to coaches, to Sunday school teachers, to school teachers, to friends, to friends’ parents—again, those are good people. But in Deuteronomy 6, God called us to teach and talk to our children about who the Lord is.

Dave:—”when we lie down; when we walk on the way,”—all times.

Jonathan:Kind of start with this. Yes, at every single point in their life.

Ann:And Jonathan, what I’m seeing too—and I can be guilty of this—is we’re not as involved, or we’re not watching what our kids are doing; because we’re on our own devices.

Jonathan:We are; we totally are.

Ann:It’s like: “I hope that show’s okay that they’re watching. I’m not even watching it.”

Jonathan:That happened to us the other day. My wife and I walked in—there’s a TV show—I did a double-take; I go, “What are you guys watching?” We’re like, “We need to change the channel.” And they’re like, “Well, we’ve been watching this for the past couple of weeks.” I’m like, “Oh my goodness, you guys.” So you’re right.

Ann:I did the same thing! I walked in, and our preschooler grandchild—the mom and dad weren’t in the room—and there’s a gay parade for this three-year-old show. What?! What is happening?

Jonathan:It’s everywhere. Again, it’s not that we are trying to find those different things so that we can just shut off access, but so that we can engage in conversation. Now, 90 percent of the time, I don’t do that; I can just say, “Okay, turn that off.”

But if I was in a better spot, and I had more time, what I should say in some of those moments is: “Okay, why do you think we’re telling you that this isn’t good for you? Why do you think we’re telling you that this is probably not the best thing for you to be watching or filling your mind with?”—to try to get them to think critically.

That would also be another method of trying to engage our children is asking questions. I will say this: I think a lot of parents don’t ask questions of their kids because they actually have to engage in conversation.

Ann:Really?

Jonathan:And we don’t. I think, sometimes, we get intimidated by conversation, especially with teenagers. I talk to parents all the time; and they say, “My teen doesn’t want to talk. They’re so intimidating to talk to. I just get one-word answers. It’s not even worth it; I’ve just given up.” I say, “Oh, don’t give up. That’s a defense mechanism for most teens; they just want to be left alone. But you can’t leave them alone; you’re their parents.”

I think, sometimes, we have to admit to our own fears or hesitations, or even sense of awkwardness that we might have with conversations. That’s where I talk a lot about redeeming carpool. I’m in the car so much with my kids at practices, and their school is about 20 minutes away. It has been the best time for us. We have a no-phone rule in our car;—

Ann:Nice.

Jonathan:—and so we talk. We’ll listen to things on the radio: we’ll listen to a podcast; or we’ll listen to Scripture. It’s 20 minutes where they can’t go anywhere; they can’t leave. But it also, it feels less fraught [than if] I’m sitting across from you at a table, and I’m giving you a lecture.

Dave:Yeah, shoulder to shoulder.

Jonathan:Yeah, it’s just shoulder to shoulder.

Dave:Something else is going on; it’s not as intimate.

Jonathan:It’s not intimidating. I think it just makes the conversation feel a lot more normal. And some of our best conversations have been in the car, just on carpools.

Ann:Us too: “Car time,” “Bed time.”

Jonathan:That is great.

Dave:Well, it’s interesting—when you mentioned Deuteronomy 6—we wrote a parenting book, and that passage was sort of the center of it. The thing that’s really interesting, even as what came to my mind when we’re talking about identity, is He says in Deuteronomy 6:4 [paraphrase]: “Parents, basically, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind; and teach these things to your children.” There’s a sense that it comes from you; it’s an overflow. “If you don’t do it, how are you going to teach it?”

I was thinking, “Identity”: if we’re going to try and instill God’s Word and God’s view of our son and daughter from His [viewpoint], you got to understand how God views you. If they’re watching us—because they’re watching!—if we’re not finding our identity in Him—rather than a salary; or what my boss thinks; or how well I did last week on the pickup basketball, softball game,”—whatever; all that stuff—it’s like they’re watching. It’s like: “You say whatever you want. If you’re not living it, they’re like, ‘Yeah, you’re trying to find your identity the same way I am.’”

Jonathan:Absolutely.

Dave:It’s just different degrees, right?

Jonathan:No, I mean, kids are always watching us—watching us like a hawk—I’ll give you a simple example. My wife and I are really involved in our church. On holidays and different special Sundays, we’re running here and there, doing different things. My kid/one of my daughters said, “You guys are always so busy on Sunday.” She goes, “We always have to sit by ourselves on Easter or Palm Sunday; because you and mom are out in the foyer, serving.”

Again, it was a catch for me; I realized, “I think I’m doing a good thing, serving; but I could also be communicating a narrative to them of: ‘Listen, it’s just about your work; it’s about what you do for other people.’” I could miss—

Dave:You had a chapter on “Good Works: Seeing Your Identity.”

Jonathan:Oh, the “Good Works” chapter, I think I was trying to write it for myself. My whole identity, growing up, was just built around: “Be a good person. That’s how you earn favor with God—is just be a good person—follow all the rules.” My identity was purely built on being a rule-follower. It’s kind of like the older brother in Luke 15.

I think that that—again, kind of going off of the identity tangent there—I think a lot of kids in Christian homes: that’s a strong source of identity formation that looks good on the outside, but can be pretty sinister internally.

Dave:Yeah. We have a friend, Jamie Winship, who wrote a book called Living Fearlessly. Of all the people I’ve listened to teach on identity—he came to our church, years ago, and did some seminars and whatever—I never heard anybody talk like this. Here’s one of his sayings that I thought, “Man, I want this for me, but I really want this for my sons.” He said, “When you understand who you are in Christ,”—and that whole theology of “in Christ,” I literally taught on it Sunday: “It’s not Christ outside me anymore. He’s actually in me, through His Holy Spirit; and now my identity is formed: ‘I am in Christ.’” Jamie said, “When you understand that—you’re living that—you walk into any room you walk into: you control it.”

Now, when I first heard that, I’m like, “That sounds so arrogant.” It doesn’t mean you’re so prideful; you control it. He’s like, “No; most rooms we walk into, we’re trying to win somebody’s approval.”

Jonathan:Yes.

Ann:We adapt to them.

Dave:Somebody in that room’s important—it could be your boss; it could be a friend—but somebody there, you want to win their approval. You do things and say things just to get their approval. He goes, “When you understand who you are, you control that room: ‘I am approved by the King of the Kings. I don’t need this guy’s approval. I don’t need to say anything or exaggerate how good I am to get it. I’ve got it; so I walk in—

Ann:—”’confidence in Christ.’”

Dave:When I’ve said this, my chest is out. I’m like—and again, I’m not prideful—I am confident in Christ. I don’t need anybody’s approval; I’ve already got it. “So what am I going to do?”—I’m going to serve. I’m going to serve and build up others. I thought, “Man, if my sons walk out of our house, and that’s how they walk in every room, as a parent, well, that’s identity.”

Jonathan:And you hit the nail on the head in terms of following a modern identity formation process. What it ultimately does is it creates somebody who’s so egotistical and self-involved because their identity has all been manufactured on their own, and it’s based in their performance; they are the best version of whatever.

A gospel identity is actually the key to true humility; because you realize, at the end of the day, you didn’t do anything to deserve this. And that humility leads you to outward service towards others. It leads you to a humble recognition of loving God and loving other people because you realize, at the end of the day, that God pursued us while we were still sinners. That is both humbling—but it’s also freeing—because you realize, “I did nothing to deserve or earn this, and there’s nothing I’m going to do to lose this or to fall away from this.”

Dave:It’s received, not achieved.

Jonathan:—not achieved. It’s received and not achieved.

Dave:That’s good. Part of me wants to say to the parents listening—although, maybe, there’s some sons and daughters listening—but I want to say, “Well, you say it better; you wrote the book on it,”—but I want to say, “You go after your identity in Christ, and guess what? They’ll catch it. They will. I mean, you got to teach it; they’re going to catch it.”

Jonathan:Yes, absolutely.

Ann:I remember saying to—four of our grandkids were in the car; their parents weren’t in the car with us—and I remember they were talking about their dad, our son. I said, “Well, he is a genius.” They were laughing, like, “No, he’s not Nonni; he’s our dad.” And I’m like, “No; because in a way, when God created him, there’s no one like him in the entire planet, nor has there ever been or ever will be.” In a way, every single one of us—when we live out who God created us to be—it’s kind of we’re a genius in our own self. It’s not that we’re better. It’s like we’re designed by a Creator, who has never created anyone else like us in the world; that’s pretty incredible.

Jonathan:Oh, it is incredible. And it goes—again, it’s so counterintuitive to the message today, which is all about: “Be the most unique person you can be.”

Ann:“I already am!”

Jonathan:“You already are! You are fearfully and wonderfully made by the Creator of the universe.” Again, it’s those kind of seeds that we’re dropping in conversation to our kids, as early as we can; and as often as we can.

Dave:Hey, last question. I’m looking at your book here—we haven’t even talked about Grounded in Grace—we have; I mean it’s the gospel—but what are these images [on the cover]? You’ve got a dove; you’ve got a crown.

Jonathan:That is great question. You’re probably one of the first people who has asked me that, Dave. The book designer—I think when he was creating the book [cover], said that he was trying to give it a creative kids kind of artistic-type feel—

Ann:I like it.

Jonathan:—so all of those images are kind of trying to emulate that.

Ann:Jonathan, I love how informative you always are.

Jonathan:Thanks.

Ann:But also how practical. Everything that you write—

Jonathan:Thank you.

Ann:—I feel like is a felt-need in our world today.

Jonathan:Thank you.

Ann: So keep going.

Jonathan:Thank you guys so much.

Ann:And how do people/how do they find you?

Jonathan:They can go to the counseling center website that I lead; it’s FieldstoneCounseling.org. If you’re looking for counseling for yourself, your marriage, or your children, we would love to be able to be of service to you.

Dave:And by the way—you know this—counseling through Zoom is as good—I’m sure it’s better if you’re in person—but I’ve done it, and it’s just like I’m there.

Ann:It works!

Jonathan:It definitely works. There’s a lot of bad things that technology brings, but there are some good things that it brings too; absolutely.

Dave:Yep. We’ve got his book, Grounded in Grace, in our show notes—FamilyLifeToday.com—go there; you can buy the book there.

Ann:Hey, thanks for watching. If you like this episode,—

Dave:You better like it.

Ann:—just hit that “Like” button.

Dave:And we’d like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the “Subscribe”—I can’t say the word, “subscribe”—hit the “Subscribe” button. I don’t think I can say this word!

Ann:I can subscribe.

Dave:Look at that! You say it so easily. “Subscribe”; there he goes!

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