How to Find God’s Grace When You’re Beyond Overwhelmed – Abbie Halberstadt

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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How to Find God’s Grace When You’re Beyond Overwhelmed

Guest: Abbie Halberstadt

Release Date: August 26, 2025

Dave (00:00:00):

How do you make this shift?—the perspective shift from this is hard, but it’s not bad.

Abbie (00:00:04):

There are people who don’t have Jesus—they have some self-discipline; they have systems in place; they can get outside help; they get organized—and then, you can function. But the joy comes from the Holy Spirit; it is a fruit of the Spirit. You can’t do it without God’s Word and His Holy Spirit.

Ann (00:00:25):

I don’t know whether to stand up and cheer or to bow down for our guest today. Let me just give you a little bit: “Can you imagine having ten children, homeschooling, and two sets of twins?” Right there, just that!

Dave (00:00:40):

No; no.

Ann (00:00:41):

Abbie, I’ve already put you on a pedestal: “What in the world?” You’re writing books too; there’s just so many things.

Dave (00:00:49):

Go ahead: fitness instructor—you didn’t even finish that.

Ann (00:00:51):

Yes, a fitness instructor.

Dave (00:00:52):

And we just found out a pickleball—4.0/4.5 maybe—I don’t know.

Abbie (00:00:58):

Not 4.5 yet; that’s the goal.

Dave: That’s the goal?

Abbie: Yeah, 4.1. We’re getting there.

Ann (00:01:04):

We have Abbie Halberstadt with us today. She’s written this great book: Hard Is Not the Same Thing as Bad. The title is intriguing.

Abbie, Dave and I are just going to sit here; we’re going to put you on this pedestal.

Abbie (00:01:23):

I always sweat when I’m on podcasts. What a great way to start, Abbie; let’s tell people about your perspiration. My body just releases the hounds—no matter how not-nervous I am; I’m not nervous right now—but it’s just like a physiological response.

Ann: I do the same!

Abbie: The thought of you putting me on a pedestal: “This is so uncomfortable!”

Ann (00:01:44):

Yes, I’m sure it was; I couldn’t help myself—anybody who has a set of twins—but you have two sets of twins.

Abbie (00:01:47):

I do. And let me just tell you: I did not think I wanted them. Our history with fertility is that my mom, who is—I mean, put her on a pedestal; she’s the one; she’s amazing—she has two whole children. People always assume I come from a big family. I don’t; I have one older brother, who’s four years older than I am. My mom would’ve happily welcomed any children that the Lord had for her. His answer was two children and a lot of miscarriages.

I think that that is a conversation that needs to be had; because people—when they talk about openness to the Lord’s sovereignty, especially in the area of fertility—assume that they’re probably going to have 20 kids. But what if the answer is the exact opposite?

Ann: “Two.”

Abbie: You are happy to have as many as the Lord gives you and the Lord says, “The number is two.”

It’s interesting: when people make these assumptions—because if you have ten kids, it must be because you were gunning for some sort of record, right?—well, I didn’t have any point of reference for this.

Ann (00:02:50):

You didn’t start your married life, thinking, “I’m going to have ten kids.”

Abbie (00:02:54):

No, I don’t think most people do. If anybody does, that’s a pretty foreign concept. I will say that on my second date with my husband—I had been engaged before; and one of the sore points was birth control, and fertility, and things like that. It’s not why we broke up; but it was—

Ann: It was a thing,

Abbie: —a struggle. I remember, on my second date with my husband, I literally told him: “I’m not going to be using chemical birth control. It’s not good for my body; I don’t want to do it.”

I think that—when Proverbs 3:5-6 talks about: “Submitting all your ways to the Lord; trust the Lord with all your heart and lean on your own understanding, and in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will [make] your path straight,”—I think that’s even more important. “He will make your path straight,”—that includes fertility. A lot of people kind of section that out because it’s so life-altering. You have so much commitment and responsibility when you have this little life come into your life.

Ann (00:03:49):

Your whole life changes.

Abbie (00:03:49):

It changes everything; exactly.

I dropped the bomb: “I’m not the least bit interested in altering my hormones, and that could mean six whole kids.”

Ann: That what you were thinking.

Abbie: When we talk about not expecting to have ten kids, that was the max my brain could even fathom. I think that was—

Dave (00:04:09):

—double digits.

Abbie (00:04:09):

—about the largest family that I knew.

Dave (00:04:12):

I’m still back: you did this on the second date?

Abbie (00:04:14):

Yes.

Dave: What was happening?

Ann: —which was smart!—super smart.

Dave: Did you think: “Wow; this could go somewhere. I better start—

Abbie: —100 percent.

Dave: Really?

Abbie: My husband was not a Christian when I first met him. If you had told me that I was going to even consider dating—or much less, marry a man who had not been a believer for a significant amount of time, was steeped in God’s Word—because I distinctly remember the moment, at five years old, when I was listening to Bullfrogs and Butterflies with my best friend, Rhonda. There was a song that came on about heaven and accepting Jesus into your heart—those colloquialisms we use, as children, declaring the Lord Jesus Lord of your life, and recognizing that you’re a sinner—I remember all these things.

Dave: —at five?

Abbie: Yes, very distinctly; it is probably the most distinct memory of my childhood.

Dave (00:05:02):

Really?

Abbie (00:05:02):

That is the moment that I gave my life to the Lord. To meet a man who wasn’t even a Christian yet, and to even consider dating him, was not something I would’ve ever expected or thought was even possible. We knew each other—we played sports together, both really athletic—I beat him in ping pong a couple times.

Ann: Oh, yeah, you did.

Abbie (00:05:26):

So we had this rivalry going; but very friendly and flirty, of course.

I was the coordinator for our 20-somethings group at church. I would send out these emails. Because I love words, they were never just like: “We’re meeting at the Mexican restaurant on Friday night,”—it was like puns, and riddles, and goofy—I was such a nerd. He loved it, because he is a software developer by trade. He’s also built two houses, with his own hands, for us. He also won lit crit [literary criticism] in high school at UIL and was valedictorian at his school, which was 14 whole people. But still, he was the best of the 14 people, academically. He’s just a Renaissance man; I was really drawn to that.

Yes, as of the second date, neither one of us were flitty types; we knew this could go somewhere. I needed him to be either scared or aware of what he was getting into.

Dave (00:06:19):

So how did he come to Christ? Did you lead him to Christ?

Abbie (00:06:22):

No; although, I would love to think that just by having strong convictions, and his being attracted to that, that he was, at least, kind of geared more that direction. No, we all have some level of common grace; obviously, not all are saved, of course. And that is the tragic reality of the separation from Christ; that is, sin without repentance.

I feel like some of us, in some ways, have more common grace than others. My husband was full of integrity; he was kind; he was hardworking.

Ann (00:06:59):

Sounds like a good man.

Abbie (00:07:00):

Yes; but, of course, “There is no one righteous, not even one.”

Ann: Exactly.

Abbie: He wasn’t righteous, but he was what the world would call “good,”—to the point that he had had girlfriends in college who had wanted to stay over. One did literally stay the night, because she had car trouble. He rolled up a comforter in the bed between them.

Ann: —which is so unusual

Abbie: Right! Because he had this conviction that he would be cheating on his future spouse if he had sex with someone before marriage.

Ann (00:07:27):

For an unbeliever, that’s kind of crazy.

Abbie (00:07:29):

It is kind of crazy. And so I feel like even though we are all depraved and the heart of man is desperately wicked, we know that very clearly from Scripture that the Lord was kind to give Shaun insight. His mom had taken him to church: he had some knowledge of Christianity; he had a little bit of biblical exposure.

Ultimately, how he described it was that he had all of the knowledge without the enlightening of the Holy Spirit.It wasn’t this huge leap; it was like: “Here’s the reason.” He was a deist: he believed that there was a God, who had designed everything; but then, He had just stepped back and wasn’t interacting with mankind. When he came to the realization, because the Lord drew his heart to Him—that: “No, I’m a deeply personal God who loves you and who chose you before the foundations of the world were laid.” It’s just like all of it clicked into place and made sense. The leaps that he made—in terms of conviction, and maturity, and growth—were just incredible from very, very quickly.

Ann (00:08:31):

That’s really cool.

Abbie (00:08:32):

Yeah.

Ann (00:08:33):

I love that you stated: “This is what’s important to me in a marriage”; because I think that, when we’re dating, we try to please the other person so much that we bend and we contour to whatever they want. We’re so desperate for the relationship. It shows your desperateness for Jesus and to have a marriage that’s reflective of that.

Abbie (00:08:53):

I feel like the Lord had already prepared my heart. Because I can be a people pleaser, I do not bend on things of conviction; the Lord has given me that; I just won’t. That’s no credit to me; I think He’s gifted me the personality for that. But when it comes to those things, where you just want people to like you, and it’s not necessarily a moral kind of thing, I will definitely change my personality or whatever; I can tend to do that. I think we all can. But because I had that previous relationship—which: “The Lord works all things together for good, for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose,”—even though that was really hard at the time, and one of the hardest years of my life up to that point, I really felt like it had given me this rock solid: “This matters so much to me and I want this to be.”

I think that every Christian should go to the Lord with every aspect of their lives, including their fertility, instead of defaulting to some sort of cultural standard, where it’s like our marriage counselors—we were required to do marriage counseling with our church; they were very sweet people, and they gave us lots of good advice—but one thing we found really interesting; we just smiled and tried not to look at each other—this was that one of their biggest piece of advices was: “Don’t have children too soon.”

I don’t know who gets to decide that, especially when we’re talking about the Lord being the opener and closer of the womb and the One who gives and takes life. We got in the car; we just kind of looked at each other: “We are going to disappoint them, so hardcore, if the Lord wills,” kind of thing.

Back to the twin thing—you said—oh, just one sec—

Ann (00:10:34):

Wait, wait, wait. How soon did you have your first baby?

Abbie (00:10:35):

One week before our first anniversary.

Ann (00:10:38):

Okay.

Abbie (00:10:39):

I will say that we thought God’s timing was incredible; because we’re doing nothing to prevent, and we don’t get pregnant for three months. Turns out I’m Fertile Myrtle, so that was kind of a miracle. I was teaching high school Spanish—I graduated at 19—and started teaching high school Spanish at 19, teaching kids who were my age. I was teaching seniors.

Dave (00:11:01):

What do you mean you graduated at 19?

Abbie (00:11:02):

I was homeschooled. My mom, when I was 14/15 years old, said, basically—because my older brother had also done this; my dad got an associate’s degree at a community college—my older brother was 14; and she was like, “You can go get a lot of your basics out of the way. Just go with your dad.” As long as you have scores to get into the college, I think—I don’t remember the cutoff age, but it’s something like 13 or 14—my brother had done it. My mom has her master’s degree in English—she’s very academic; she’s taught at the collegiate level—she knows all the things. She homeschooled my brother and me.

She told me, at 14 or 15: “You can either do your last two years of high school; and then, basically repeat them in college.” There wasn’t nearly as much dual credit or CLEP-ing options. I’m not going to say how many years ago—I don’t care if anybody knows; I’m like, “What’s the math on that?”—25 years ago as there are now. She said, “You can redo it, or you can just jump into college.” I was like, “I’ll do that. I’m not doing anything twice that I won’t have to do.” I started at 15; finished at 19 and started teaching high school Spanish.

At 22, I was in my third or fourth year of teaching; I think fourth year of teaching. I ended up announcing the pregnancy, way into it. I’m sure people were like, “She’s looking a little thick”; but I didn’t say anything until 20 weeks. You can get away with that with your first baby. I remember the guidance counselor, who is a kind, godly woman who goes to our church now—she probably has no memory of saying this whatsoever—saying, when we announced the pregnancy: “Oops, accidents happen.”She assumed, because our culture tells us this is the right way to do it—because we had marriage counselors, who said, “Don’t have kids too soon; it’ll ruin your marriage,”—that we couldn’t possibly have meant to or been open to having children so early in our marriage. I remember my mouth falling open—the people-pleasing thing—I didn’t say anything back to her. I just laughed awkwardly, because I didn’t know what to say. I think I was 23 by that point.

So here I am, thinking the Lord’s timing is amazing; because I’m not due until the last week after finals. I’m like, “Look at that: I’ll have the whole summer if I want to come back.” I did a couple more years, part-time, until I quit to stay home with my kiddos. So just the different perspective: “You worked that out; great!” I didn’t have to leave in the middle of the year; I didn’t inconvenience anybody. And sure enough, I had him one week after my last final—

Ann: That’s amazing.

Abbie: —and one week before our first anniversary.

Dave (00:13:39):

Did it ruin your marriage?

Abbie (00:13:41):

No; it did not, in fact, ruin our marriage.

Ann (00:13:41):

I think the reason I could tease you when I first met you is because—

Dave (00:13:48):

She does that to every guest; she just bows down.

Abbie: I don’t think this one has a reason.

Ann (00:13:51):

I don’t think I’ve ever done that, actually.

Dave (00:13:53):

I don’t think she’s ever done it.

Ann (00:13:54):

The reason I could do it is because you’re incredibly real and honest in your book. You can tell that by the title: Hard Is Not the Same Thing as Bad. You’re saying it’s: “Raising kids can be hard.”

Abbie: Oh, 100 percent.

Ann: You have ten of them; and you don’t shy away from saying, “Yes, it’s hard. Yeah, it is.” That’s the thing that I’ve appreciated that you haven’t put yourself on the pedestal.

Abbie (00:14:18):

If I ever put myself on a pedestal, I pray God knocks me off right away.

Ann: Exactly.

Abbie: I think the audacity to say, “Follow me,”—rather than—“Follow Christ,”—“Please, never Lord.” One of my best friends, and mentor, Jennifer Flanders has 12 children; that’s not why we’re best friends. We have completely different personalities. There isn’t some large-family moms Unite Club.

Dave: You’ve got a competition going on here.

Abbie (00:14:45):

No.

Dave: You going for three more?

Abbie: No, she is 17 years my senior; and her three youngest are the same age as my three oldest. She is just such a wonderful source of wisdom. She’s the de facto editor of all my books; she gets first shot at all of them and is such a good sounding board. She says: “I pray this prayer every day: ‘Lord, take me home before You ever let me betray You or blaspheme Your name, even unintentionally, in any way.’” It’s a scary prayer; literally, “Take me out.”

Ann (00:15:19):

—”rather than disgrace Your name.”

Abbie (00:15:21):

Yeah; or “…make it about me.”

Ann (00:15:22):

Yes. We’re living in a culture that really easy to make it about us. You’re not; you’re putting all the glory and all the attention onto Jesus.

Dave: Well, there’s definitely a—

Ann: You could, at least—I’m thinking, “Ten kids: is she going to be frumpy?”

Abbie: Oh, come on; can we get rid of this stereotype?

Ann: Well, every woman who’s had five, you’re like, “Well, it does change things.” You’re gorgeous, but you’re incredibly humble too; so it’s really fun.

Dave (00:15:50):

In some ways—you do, in some ways, think that could be happening—you don’t have time for yourself.

Abbie (00:15:54):

Yeah; that can happen, for sure. I think that we make time for what’s important to us. If you were to walk into my home at 8:00 am on a homeschool morning, you would think I was incredibly frumpy. I’m okay with that. Obviously, I’m going to put on some makeup, and a cute outfit to come to something like this. But on any given day, I am wearing workout clothes all day, with zero makeup; and frizzy hair.

Ann (00:16:20):

—of course. But I love—I think that we, as women—when we’re in this together; and we can hear somebody who’s homeschooling, who’s raising kids, who’s writing books, you’re like, “Man, she’s learned a few things. I want to hear what you have to say.”

Abbie (00:16:33):

I think that that is true. I think that we need to keep all the glory and honor to Jesus, but not gatekeep some things that we have picked up, along the way, as a way of false humility. Like one of my least favorite things for seasons moms to say is: “I know less than when I started.” I understand the concept.

(00:16:56)

Ann: You know what they mean.

Abbie: I do know what they mean, but I don’t know that everybody else does. I hear from lots of young moms who are like, “Would somebody please step up, and have the confidence and the courage to say, ‘The Lord has grown me, and here are some really helpful things that are principles. You don’t have to do them like I do them; you don’t have to apply them the way that I apply them.’” Go with the interest, and the personality, and the strengths as well as addressing the weaknesses that the Lord has given you. Don’t try to copy anybody else’s particular application of the principles. But my goodness, don’t shy away from saying, “The Lord has grown me in patience and self-discipline,” because how depressing would it be to say, “I’ve given 20 years of my life to parenting, and I’m worse off than when I started”?

Ann (00:17:48):

We should be different; we should be better—not better in that we have it totally figured out—but better in that: “Man, we’ve grown; we’ve learned. God’s changing us.”

Abbie (00:17:55):

It’s called sanctification; it’s a process.

Ann (00:17:57):

Yeah.

Dave (00:17:58):

You guys are a lot alike.

Ann (00:18:01):

Do you think so?

Dave (00:18:02):

I feel like I could go in the production booth to just let you two talk: “What am I doing here?”

But no; even on our first date—her dad was my high school coach; I was a quarterback; her brother’s my center—so I knew the family really well. She was the younger sister, like you said earlier, not on the air.

Ann: —under the bleachers.

Dave: —under the bleachers, catching foul balls. She was the better athlete than all her brothers. Brothers, if you’re listening, you know that’s true.

Abbie: I love it.

Dave: You know that’s true, and they are all college athletes.

But our first date, we’re sitting by the Findlay Reservoir, Findlay, Ohio. We’re three years—I’m older, three years—I say to her—I’m going into my senior year in college; she’s still a senior in high school—I just said, “So what do you want to do with your life?” She just looks at me, and she goes, “I’m following Jesus. Whatever He calls me to do, I’m in. He’s called me to something. If a guy’s going to be a part of it, whatever; but I don’t think it has anything to do with a guy. That’s where I’m going.” I’m like, “I’m marrying this girl!” It was like, “Nobody had ever said,”—like you did on your second date—“’This is a conviction of mine; it’s important to me. Whether you like it or not, this is who I am.’” That’s appealing to men, and to your kids: that you are a woman who knows who you are, knows who God is, knows what God calls you to do, and you’re going to live that out.

Ann (00:19:26):

And you’re not perfect in it, but you have strong convictions because of the Word of God and our relationship with God.

Abbie (00:19:31):

Yeah. He’s the One who gives us this.

Ann (00:19:33):

Let me ask you—because with this book, you’re getting into all kinds of areas that you’ve grown in—but let’s start because we’ve already hit that young moms because it can be shocking for a lot of us, as young moms. I remember saying to my dad—because I was in sports my whole life, too—I remember I had a colicky baby, the first one. I remember saying to him, because he asked: “So how is this? How are you doing?” “Dad, I could go out and run a marathon today with no training; and it would be easier than what I’m doing right now at home; I’m so over my head. I do not know what I’m doing, and I’m not getting sleep. I’m not liking Dave, and I’m blaming Dave.”

What about that mom who’s in that right now, where everything feels overwhelming? Because you’ve been there a lot.

Abbie: Yeah, 100 percent.

Dave (00:20:25):

She thinks your title is: “This Is Hard, and It’s Bad,”

Abbie (00:20:29):

Okay, so part of that is human nature. I think we naturally equate something difficult that we’re going through, especially when it’s unpleasant—

Ann (00:20:40):

—as bad.

Abbie (00:20:40):

There are difficult—I love to lift weights—lifting weights is difficult, especially when you get to that point where you’re in progressive overload. Your muscles are just screaming at you. I liken it to being screamed at by a colicky baby—nobody likes that—you’re not thinking about:—

Ann: There’s no control.

Abbie: There’s no control; you cannot make it stop—which one thing that I always say: “And those who have ears to hear, do hear it,”—is if you say you want to be like Christ, and you are a mother, be grateful that you have been given a built-in opportunity to become more like Him instead of looking at it as: “How do I get through to the easier part of this?”

Ann (00:21:21):

And that’s what we do: “Can’t wait until this stage is over.”

Abbie (00:21:24):

Yes, exactly. There’s so much you miss. People are like—well, I guess most people aren’t like—“Well, easy for you to say”; because I have done it so many times, I must know, at least, a little bit whereof I speak.

What I say to those women is that: “There is no Scriptural support for saying that the current struggle that you’re in now gets to define anything for you in terms of your relationship to the Lord.” We are called to suffer well; we are told by Jesus that we will experience hardship. Not that we will sort of be inconvenient sometimes; or certainly not that we will be able to manifest all good things for ourselves and end up with only rainbows and butterflies. But instead, He literally tells us: “In this world, you will have trouble.” That would just be depressing to end there; and instead, He follows it up with, immediately—not: “Wallow in it”; “Consider yourself a victim”; or “Grouse to your girlfriends constantly,”—but: “Be of good cheer,”—which feels like such a slap in the face when you’re suffering—but it comes directly from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We have to, then, keep going; which is, “for I have overcome the world.” You have to find the practical ways that actually means something to you.

Ann (00:22:46):

Somebody’s saying right now, “How do I be of good cheer when I haven’t slept? I have a—

Dave (00:22:50):

Well, your opening chapter—you described it so well—I don’t know what her name was, crying in the car seat—crawling out of the car seat.

Ann (00:22:58):

That right there—take us back to that day—because I’m like, “That is being a mom.”

Abbie (00:23:03):

So to touch on the thing you said about twins—way back, when you’re like, “One set of twins; oh, my goodness, that’s enough,”—and here I am, thinking I’m open-handed; but not having a clue what the Lord’s going to do. The one little caveat I was pulling aside was: “Do not give me multiples, Lord.”

Ann: You said that?

Abbie: Oh, yes; I was like, “Lord Jesus, I am 22 years old. Twins sound miserable. That just sounds like: ‘How would you ever do anything but feed them, and change diapers, and never sleep?’”—which did not/ I mean, was somewhat my reality; but somewhat, not. Evie and Nola, my first set of twins—because I have two.

Ann: Two sets of twins; and this isn’t because you had any hormones, any kind of artificial—

Abbie: No; in fact, the Lord has such a great sense of humor. Both of my sets of twins, as far as we know, are identical. That’s more unusual than fraternal twins. They are a gift. They do not come from heredity. They do not come from, I mean, I guess something could happen with hormones, but we weren’t taking any. It’s where you have one baby splits into two. I think it’s one in a thousand births or something like that.

Science has never found any connection between a particular woman and having identical sets of twins, so to have one is pretty random. You’re unusual to have two sets who are both identical. The way that—we’ve never had them genetically tested—but there’s only one placenta both times, so your body only prepared for one baby. That’s a pretty good scientific indication. It’s very unusual.

And then, we actually had another twin pregnancy right after our first twin pregnancy. We lost my son, Theo’s identical twin brother—because there was only one placenta—to something called Vanishing Twin Syndrome, which we would’ve never known there was another baby. But after having a set of twins—that we didn’t find out until 19 weeks—we were like, “We’re having an early sonogram and seeing what’s going on in there so we can just be mentally prepared.” The sonographer was able to see a shadow where the baby had been—even measured the shadow—and know that the baby had died three weeks before. I’ve actually been pregnant with identical twins three separate times; two live births of both of them surviving.

My husband did some sort of crazy math, and it was like a one in twenty-seven million chance, according to science. I just really feel like it was the Lord’s way of saying, “If you say I’m in control, you better mean it.” My first set of twins were dream babies; they slept through the night by 11 weeks.

Ann (00:25:45):

How many kids had you already had by that?

Abbie (00:25:46):

They were my numbers four and five. And I distinctly remember lying on my husband’s chest that night, in the dark, the day that we found out that it was twins and saying, “Five kids is a lot of kids,”—the reality of that—and my oldest was five.

Ann (00:26:01):

Come on! So the oldest kids were five—what?

Abbie: Five, three, and one.

Dave (00:26:09):

You didn’t know that you were going to times that by two.

Abbie (00:26:12):

—by two. Who knew? And my girls—it was a lot of work—there were a lot of kids and two babies at the same time. But we were making it work; and then, they hit toddlerhood. My one particular girl, who’s the younger of them by eight whole minutes, Magnolia Claire—we call her Nola, who is just a force to be reckoned with; she is such a precious girl.

Ann: —my mom’s name. That’s such a great name.

Abbie (00:26:36):

Really; which one?

Ann (00:26:36):

It’s Nola.

Abbie: Oh, I love it; it’s so unusual. It’s very rare; I love that.

She just was—and seeing how deeply she feels things and how she charges through life now in such a productive and cool way, you’re like, “Okay, this is where this was going.” But at three—two and three quarters—is when they went off the deep end. My husband was on a wilderness trip with his dad, out of cell phone range. That just was the moment where they started screaming in the car. They had sensory issues—everything just bothered them—everything. I think the older one, Evie, just kind of went along with her sister; but they just tag-teamed it to such an exhausting degree.

Ann (00:27:19):

You’re in the car, and they’re screaming.

Abbie (00:27:21):

—every single time. I was a fitness instructor; and I taught four to five days a week, which was my outlet.

Ann: Of course, I did that too.

Abbie: You drive in; you get everybody.

Ann: It’s for your sanity.

Abbie: It’s for your sanity. But also, just getting five—at this point, six kids; because I’ve had another baby; [the twins are] toddlers now—out the door. Everybody has to have shoes; everybody needs to be clothed and sort of in the right mind enough to walk to the car and buckle the car seats. We would drive down—we had kind of a long driveway—I recruited—I talk about this in the book—I recruited the kids; we would help distract them. I would be almost to the end of the driveway, and I wouldn’t hear any spitting noises behind me yet. I’d be like, “Lord, maybe today/maybe today’s the day that I don’t get screamed at for the next 30 minutes”; everybody else loses a little bit of their hearing. And then, you’d hear this—[huffing sound]—and it would get louder, and louder, and louder! They would both take off.

Ann (00:28:19):

Oh, my word. What kind of vehicle did you have?

Abbie (00:28:21):

At that time, I was in a Honda Odyssey with every single seat filled; it was so crammed. And then, somewhere in the midst of that, we switched to a 12-passenger van; but we were pretty on top of each other.

Ann (00:28:34):

So who was trying to get out? Didn’t you say that they could get out of their car seats?

Abbie (00:28:37):

The situation that I described in the beginning of this book is Nola, on the way home. I had taken just her so that everybody could get a break. She was wonderful, but also just a lot. I’m like, “You’re just coming with me to the gym.” My husband was home; the rest of the kids were home. On the way home, she started getting upset about the buckles. It was a sensory thing to a very great extent, but you can’t do anything about it because they have to be in a car seat. She contortions herself out of this seat; I don’t even know how. I pulled over five times; re-buckled it.

Ann (00:29:11):

No, you didn’t.

Abbie (00:29:12):

Cinched it down to where she ended up having marks on her neck; she was writhing around so hard. I had to get it tighter than norma.

Ann: —to be safe.

Abbie: I was afraid she was going to be out and climbing over the front seat, and she will not calm down. I remember I would just knock my head against the window—just bonk my head against the window—it was almost like a sensory thing for me to be like, “I can’t throw things and scream.”

Ann (00:29:43):

So this is what you’re talking about when it’s hard. And some people would say, “That sounds bad.” But you’re saying, “No, I’ve learned a lot!”

Abbie (00:29:51):

Oh, my word; if I had not gone through that with the twin girls, some of the things my future children did would have turned me inside out, just like they did. Instead, I’m like, “What you got? There’s not two of you,”—until there were again—because my last two, my four year olds are also twins; twin boys.

Ann (00:30:13):

Yeah. What are the ages?—the age span—your youngest is how old?

Abbie (00:30:16):

They are four-year-old twin boys; and then, it’s all the way up to nineteen. I had ten kids in fourteen years.

Dave (00:30:26):

Wow. So how does a mom and a dad—a person—shift? How do you make this shift?—the perspective shift from: “This is hard, but it’s not bad,” or that “I’m losing my mind; and I’m screaming and yelling, and I can’t find any joy in this.”

Ann (00:30:44):

I still have the head thing—

Dave: —predicament.

Ann: —banging against the window [image in my mind].

Abbie (00:30:46):

It helped. I don’t know why it helped, but it helped.

You can’t do it without God’s Word and His Holy Spirit.

Dave (00:30:53):

I agree.

Abbie (00:30:54):

I do think that there are people, who don’t have Jesus, who can have that common grace thing—they have some self-discipline; they have systems in place; they get outside help; they get organized—and then, you can function. But the joy comes from the Holy Spirit; it is a fruit of the Spirit.

Ann (00:31:12):

But Abbie, how are you doing that? People are like, “Wait, you’ve got all these kids under five. How do you have God and the Holy Spirit? When do you have time for Jesus?”

Dave (00:31:20):

What? Do you think He left the room?

Ann (00:31:22):

No, I know He didn’t. But we feel like He’s left the room sometimes.

Abbie (00:31:25):

Well, we are told to pray without ceasing. I have prayed so many—just talking—my kids walk in on me, just talking to myself. I’m really talking to the Lord while I am doing laundry, while I am wiping bottoms, while I am bathing children. Of course, there’s the ongoing conversation.

But I also like to teach some of my younger children who have struggled with anger or sensory issues, something I call bullet prayers, where it is just a simple shot to heaven: “Jesus, I don’t have any patience. Can You please give me some patience right now?” He usually gives you more opportunities to practice when you ask things like that.

Ann (00:31:59):

And you’ll pray that out loud?

Abbie (00:32:00):

Yeah; it’s really good for your kids to see you talking to the Lord, to see you desperate for the Lord rather than just desperate. I always tell moms that there is this misconception about reading our Bibles: that we need to get up at 5:00 am; we need to have color-coordinated pens; we need to have hot coffee; we need to have worship music playing in the background—

Ann: —special chair

Abbie: —a special chair, and a special blinky. Listen, if we have to have all those things—and we got to remember where they all are, because the kids scattered them around the house at some point in your special spot—that they’re like: “’Special’; so I want to play with it.” If you have to have all those things, you’ll never do it; or the baby’s not sleeping and 5:00 am is a ridiculous idea. Don’t do that to yourself. Read God’s Word aloud to your children. Put on songs that have pure Scripture in them in the kitchen while you make breakfast.

Ann: What are some of those?

Abbie: Seeds Family Worship is a great option.

Ann: I was going to say, “So good.”

Abbie: Steve Green’s—hide God’s Word in your heart—or Hide ‘Em in Your Heart is old school; but it’s Scripture.

Ann (00:33:04):

Ellie Holcomb has some too that are great: Scripture.

Abbie (00:33:06):

Shane & Shane does a whole lot of Scripture. Find those good theologically-sound, Scripture-based resources that don’t require more effort from you. Say, “Alexa, play Shane & Shane,”—instead of—”Alexa, play Baby Shark,” for the 456th time. It takes a little bit of intentionality or memorizing God’s Word with your kids. I know people who do motions and songs, and that’s amazing; and I love it.

I don’t—

I say, “Okay, do everything without complaining or arguing,”—“Now, you guys say, ‘Do everything without complaining or arguing.’”

[Adult voice] “Give thanks in all circumstances,”—[Child’s voice] “Give thanks in all circumstances.”

[Adult voice] “for this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus,”—[Child’s voice] “for this is the will…” We just keep repeating it until we’ve got it. We’ve memorized whole chapters together that way.

My mom did the same for us. I think we overthink things, and we also think that certain things don’t count.

Ann (00:34:00):

—and they have to look a certain way.

Abbie (00:34:01):

—and they have to look a certain way.

But our family Bible reading, which my husband leads now, looks a little bit like a circus sometimes. We have a very open-plan house on purpose; because we want to be able to be all in a big room together. There’s a lot of us, so the kitchen bleeds into the living room. I’m in the kitchen, making eggs and making a bunch of noise; and “Hey, can you say that again? I didn’t hear you!” And then, the little boys are asking me questions; and I’m shushing them. The older kids are half-awake, because they don’t want to get up at 7:30 and do Bible reading. They like Bible reading; they actually/my older children all read their Bibles on their own in the evenings. And people always ask me how I “got them to do that.” I didn’t; actually, we don’t require that of them. I’m so grateful that they have chosen that.

Ann (00:34:47):

And they’re not on screens, and you don’t have TV on in the evenings.

Abbie (00:34:51):

Sometimes, if we watch movies together as a family or something. But this is like when they go to bed. They go get in bed—

Ann (00:34:58):

Okay; they’re in bed; they read the Bible.

Abbie (00:34:59):

And an older one will read it to her younger sisters, and that kind of thing.

Ann: How sweet.

Abbie: They’re all in the same [room] because we actually have a boy wing and a girl ring in our house. I mentioned that my husband built houses. His dad owned a construction company, and he worked with him. They worked together to build two of our houses, completely from scratch—everything:, electrical, plumbing, siding, framing, flooring—everything. We built a boy’s wing, which has four bunks in it; and then, a room in front that can be converted to a bedroom if we need to. And a girl’s wing that has four bunks in it.

They’ll sit in there and read the Bibles at night; and sometimes, they’re way too late. I’ll be like, “What are y’all doing up?” They’re like: “We haven’t read our Bibles yet.” I’m sure they skip some nights—it’s not about legalism—it’s about the heart of thinking that God’s Word is living and active. It never returns void, and it has everything we need for life and godliness. So of course, we prioritize it; and of course, we use it as our foundation for everything.

Ann (00:35:59):

Let me ask you—because one of the things that stopped me, as I was reading it, that you said you don’t even focus that much on all the stuff—the little kids are like the hard part of it—because it doesn’t seem as hard anymore. Is that kind of what you said?—something like: “When I think about the younger kids, that’s not even a thing now. I’m more focused on”—[I’m hearing]: “It’s nothing.” Does it get easier now that you’ve had these kids?—and the little ones, you’re like you’ve learned so much about it?

Abbie (00:36:32):

Yes and no. I would say that, interestingly enough, my last two have probably been my clingiest probably because they haven’t had a baby to kick them out of the baby status. They have not been, I think that there is a hope that, when you have another child—if you choose to have another child; the Lord gives you another child—that “This will be the easy one”; and that they’ll just progressively get easier. But I haven’t found that to be the case.

Ann (00:37:02):

You haven’t?

Abbie (00:37:03):

No; I’ve had the three that have been just really easy toddlers—just easy-going, cheerful—”We’re going here,” “Great; I’m good.” “We’re going here; we’re doing this,” “I’m happy.”

I’ve had seven, who have been challenging for various reasons in various ways. My last two were challenging because they were obsessed with me. I nursed them until they were two years/two years and nine months old—longest I’ve ever nursed babies.

Ann (00:37:32):

Probably like Hannah with Samuel. She probably went longer, actually. Who knows.

Abbie (00:37:35):

Yeah; probably did, honestly.

We took a huge family trip two years ago to Europe for 45 days; all of us went.

Ann: What?!

Abbie: Yes, it was wonderful. And things could not have gone better. Our weather was perfect; we were all safe. It was such an enjoyable experience. You can say it was such an enjoyable experience; and also, “That was really hard. There was a lot of moving/there were a lot of moving pieces.” Two of the moving pieces constantly were keeping two-year-olds, who were very out of their element with life.

Ann (00:38:13):

I can’t even imagine.

Abbie (00:38:14):

It was a constant family-working-together thing. But here’s what I don’t want: I don’t want my older kids to get to parenting, and go, “What, in the actual world? She never told us about any of this.” They are never the parent. There’s a whole conversation about parentification—“If you ask your kids to be participants in your home, or ever play with their siblings, or watch them, or help them with something, you’re making them the parent,”—that is absolute nonsense. We know the difference between helping someone do something for 30 minutes and being in charge of their entire lives.

Ann (00:38:50):

That’s good.

Abbie (00:38:51):

I do think that we rob our kids of an incredible opportunity to—like it talks about in Philippians 2:4—“Consider others as more important than yourselves. Look not only to your own needs but to the needs of others.” If we are called to love God and love our neighbors, we better start with the neighbors who live in our own home. Loving means giving of ourselves: not just prioritizing what we want to do; and never being inconvenienced by our siblings, or our parents, or the neighbors outside our doors.

When you said, “Is it just kind of like you just roll with it now?” Yes, in some ways; but also, the Lord gave us two very clingy, needy little boys at the end. They are still some of our rascalliest in some ways—just to come up with a word—but it doesn’t faze me like it used to.

Ann: Maybe, that’s the difference.

Abbie: It still requires a great deal of effort and focus. In fact, I would say they were my biggest focus in the last four years—while also, not ignoring my older children, of course—but they took the most mental, emotional, and physical energy.

Ann (00:39:57):

—your time and energy.

Abbie (00:39:58):

Yeah, they were with me all the time. If I was going somewhere, they were with me. Whereas, the older kids can stay home. I get them started on math, and they can do math while I take the little babies—who are going to distract the tar out of them—to the gym with me, teach a class, pick up some groceries, come back; and then, we just roll with our day. The babies go down for naps. We literally still call them “the babies”; because they are the babies of our family, even though they’re four-and-a-half.

It is still like we are going to be giving of ourselves and pouring ourselves, like

Romans 12:1 says: “Offer yourselves/offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God for this is your spiritual act of worship.” Again, whereas the culture tells us: “You should kind of try to skate through motherhood as much as possible without letting it faze you too much. Because if you don’t…”—I literally just came across an account the other day that was doing some fitness stuff. The fitness stuff had a spinoff account, and it was called something about “Selfish Motherhood.” It was the idea that you put yourself first or you won’t be able to prioritize anyone else, which is the opposite of what Philippians 2:4 says.

Ann: Wow.

(00:41:07)

And this wasn’t a Christian.

Ann: It’s kind of that the twisted self-care thing.

Abbie: Exactly; in my first book, M Is for Mama, I have a whole chapter called “Self-care Versus Soul Care,” where it’s like—my nails are done right now; I’m wearing jewelry; my makeup is done—I’m not at home with my children currently. Clearly, it’s not just this absolute slog—that you never, ever come up for breath from; and help is always wanted and accepted—but when you make it about you first—rather than saying, “Lord, what do You have for me?”—a lot of times you just create this void. No amount of treats and drinks out with girlfriends, or whatever—all the world tells us that we need to survive—or Starbucks or Target runs or just kind of the things that are the social media memes; they don’t fill it.

Ann (00:41:58):

I think, too—because we’re in that area—it’s so easy to be on social media. We get into the comparison mode. Man, it’s really easy to fall down that valley—when you’re a parent, when you’re a mom—and you’re looking at other lives; or you’re looking at other moms, who seem like they’ve got it all together; or they are having their me-time—you’re like, “I haven’t gone to the bathroom by myself in five years.”

Dave (00:42:23):

Honestly, I’m listening to this conversation. I’m thinking you’re the one they’re comparing themselves to.

Ann (00:42:27):

Yeah!

Dave (00:42:28):

You are remarkable in terms of what you do—

Ann (00:42:32):

—the capacity that Gods given you.

Dave (00:42:33):

—and accomplish. I’m thinking the average mom is like: “She writes books; she homeschools; she teaches fitness; she has ten kids,”—blah, blah, blah—”builds homes.” It’s awesome; but the average mom is probably like, “It’s unattainable.” And you’re saying, “No, it isn’t unattainable.”

Abbie (00:42:49):

Right; because your version—no matter what it is—is not less than; it’s only different. If you’re saying, “I bake bread in my home and have people over,”—“Glory be to God; that is what He has called you to do; be faithful in that.”

Also, you’ve probably heard somewhere this idea of: “Never compare your beginning or middle to someone else who’s farther down the line.” I did some of these things like the fitness instructing—which again, it’s only hard and bad in our brains when it’s something hard that we don’t enjoy—like I was giving you. I like exercising.

Ann: It’s fun.

Abbie: If someone doesn’t like exercising, they can’t relate.

I don’t like gardening—I want to like gardening—but I don’t like gardening. I’m terrible about outdoor plant stuff. Someone who’s just out there—my sister-in-law—planted this gorgeous garden. You know what my first impulse, when I walked into this gorgeous garden, was? One, to praise her; two, to be like, “Oh, no; I’m failing. I got to get on this.” And then, I stepped back. Because I’m 42 now—and I have more sense than I did when I was 20 and was trying to do all the things at the same time—I go, “Exactly in what time would you do this, Abbie?—it’s taken—the Lord hasn’t put that in your path, so keep going down that path that you have. Let her be amazing in this, and cheer for her; because the Lord has gifted her in this. And then, grow in it when you get an opportunity, a little space of time.”

Ann (00:44:30):

It’s a lot like the Proverbs 31 woman. I used to read that and be overwhelmed with all the things that she did. [Rather]: “No, that’s her lifespan.”

Abbie (00:44:37):

She’s a prototype, too.

Ann (00:44:38):

Yes, exactly. They’re not describing this one particular woman.

Abbie (00:44:43):

Yeah. They’re describing things that you can do to rise up and be called blessed for doing, like taking care of your family well: looking well to the ways of your household, economically, and being frugal and wise; and making good choices; and honoring your husband. You see her doing all of those things.

But I’m never playing pickleball, being a fitness instructor, writing a book, and teaching math at the same time.

Ann (00:45:08):

—the same time; exactly.

Abbie (00:45:09):

I didn’t publish a book until I was 39. I always say, “I’m just a highly pragmatic person. I don’t do ‘dreams.’ I don’t set goals. I’m not someone who’s like, ‘In five years, I will have sold this many books.’” The Bible tells us you don’t know where you’re going to be tomorrow, and the Lord is the One who counts the hairs on your head and gives you the next breath in your body. It talks about in James that you say, “If the Lord wills, we will do this or that, and go.” How presumptuous of me to say, “In five years, I know I’m going to be killing it in this.” One, I don’t care; I actually don’t care. Sure, numbers are nice; but if I’m killing it, and I have made that happen outside of the Lord’s will for my life, shame on me.

Ann (00:45:55):

And your kids are miserable—

Abbie: —and my kids are miserable.

Ann: —because you spent so much time away that you’re not around them.

Dave (00:46:00):

Now, do you do the same thing with your kids, not set goals?—“They’re going to be doing this in two years.”

Abbie (00:46:06):

Oh, gosh; no!

Dave (00:46:06):

Because a lot of moms live under this guilt—even the sports thing—what do you guys do with that?

Abbie (00:46:11):

We did not do a lot of sports with our younger children; because we didn’t want to spend every evening away from our home, running around. We are both very sports-minded and grew up doing a ton of sports, but we also come from much smaller families. We would do soccer in the spring. Whoever wanted to play soccer, we would all do soccer. We would run around in the yard—we have a big front yard—just things like that.

As our kids have gotten older—particularly, my second son, Simon, who’s 17 now, loves sports—and we homeschool. There is a homeschool league in our area. We have a very active homeschooling community in East Texas, and there’s a homeschool league that’s quite competitive. He played—I’m trying to remember—how many players does a normal football—you know this!—how many players does a normal football team have that they play?

Dave (00:47:02):

Well, you play 11 at a time.

Abbie (00:47:03):

Okay; so this was six-man football, I think.

Dave (00:47:05):

Okay.

Abbie (00:47:06):

So smaller.

Dave (00:47:06):

Probably 7 man; they have 7 man.

Abbie (00:47:07):

Okay, that sounds good; I didn’t ever count. I just needed to know who mine was out there. Two of my boys played that for a couple of years. And then, Simon has gotten really into basketball. He practices and practices and absolutely loves it.

You were talking about: “Do I plan for my kids?” I graduated early, and so I assumed all my kids would—because who wants to [makes a noise]—and would go to college. My son was on track to graduate a year early. My oldest son did graduate a year early—and really was kind of unmoored for a year—was like, “Now, what?” Because he’s choosing to do computer programming. The world is changing with college, and I have no idea if any of my kids are going to college. My age—back at college age—it was like, “Of course, you’re going.” And now, it’s trades, and learning skills, and jumping right into earning money, which I think is really wise.

Dave (00:47:57):

—and no student debt.

Abbie (00:47:58):

No student debt, exactly. My oldest is learning computer programming like his dad. But for that year after high school, where everybody else was still in school at his homeschool co-op, he was like, “What do I do with myself?”

My second-born is obsessed with sports. He wants to be an athletic trainer and wants to work with athletes. He’s going to be really good at it too—he’s personable; he loves the burn—he’s very motivated and disciplined and gets after that. Here I am, thinking, “He’s going to want to graduate a year early.” He said, “Mama, please tell them I’m not a senior this year; because I want to play basketball for another year.” Of course, I did that. Even the plans that I did have—they changed—that’s what happens.

Ann (00:48:38):

With ten kids—I remember I’m trying to see who God made our kids to be—you probably do that. It’s so fun—

Abbie (00:48:47):

Yes, it is fun.

Ann (00:48:48):

—to discover.

Abbie: It’s one of my favorite things about being a mom.

Ann: Me too! And that’s what you’ve done—you haven’t made your kids become something—you’re watching who God created them to be.

Abbie (00:48:56):

—100 percent.

Ann (00:48:56):

How did you learn that?

Abbie (00:48:58):

I think my parents did a good job of exemplifying that for me. Because I went to college so early, of course, she had some input on my class choices and stuff. I had no idea what I was doing. She was thinking very pragmatically. She was thinking I might be a physical therapist or a physical therapist assistant, because you have flexibility of schedule. If you become a mom, you have a good degree that you can keep and a certification, whatever all the right terms are. I was like, “Okay, Mom,”—not so very reluctantly—but just like, “Okay, I’ll try that.” I would’ve been a terrible physical therapist assistant. I’m very physical—but I’m not science-minded; I’m not medically-minded—I don’t care about that stuff.

I love words and I love languages. I ended up getting a double BA in Spanish and English. Interestingly enough, the Lord has used both of those things. I have an English degree that I, 100 percent, use to write books now. And I taught high school Spanish between public, private, and homeschool co-op for a combined total of ten years.

That wasn’t her plan for me; but she rolled with it when she saw the interest developing, and saw me working hard and making the grades, and getting the academic scholarships. We didn’t have any money for college. I went to college for free, because we needed all the scholarships. I was grateful not to come out with student debt. But yeah, she set the example of being somewhat interest-led while having those guidelines there so you don’t just completely go off the rails.

Ann (00:50:37):

Yeah, that’s good.

Dave: Now, how were they “the chain-breakers”? You say that the first page.

Abbie (00:50:42):

Yes, yes. The dedication to Hard Is Not the Same Thing as Bad is to my parents, who both grew up with genuinely abusive parents in some way, shape, or form. My mom grew up with physically-abusive dad and a mom—who, as a result of being married to that kind of man—was kind and loving in some ways; but also, just emotionally unavailable; and sometimes, didn’t get out of bed. My mom literally got her hardship license at 13 years old and was driving at 14, driving everybody everywhere; working; doing all the things. She has been someone who has coped since she was very, very young; someone who has had many, many negative words spoken over her throughout her life.

My dad came from an extremely godless—

And my mom lived in the south, lived in East Texas—they’re going to church. I think my grandmother was a Christian. My grandfather, whom my mom chose to love instead of—I think she struggled with bitterness at a certain point—but this was the one who was verbally and physically abusive to her. She just felt convicted that: if the Bible says that we are to forgive because Christ has first forgiven us, that she had to do that; she had to find a way to do that. She started bringing him treats and writing him letters. He actually came to Christ on his deathbed, I’m sure, as a result of her faithfulness to show him what the love and care of Christ looks like. That was when he was in his 70s.

My dad’s parents were just completely outside of God and did really damaging things—all around drugs, alcohol, pornography—all kinds of things. [They] divorced when he was in his teens. My dad really struggled with various things, particularly drugs in high school and college, set by this example of his parents, and no guidance and no guardrails. He is a believer, but he struggles with bipolarism. My mom has shown me what it looks like to truly, for better or for worse, walk beside someone who genuinely struggles. To see their commitment—to truly following Christ when it would make so much more sense, in the world’s perspective, to tap out—has been so inspiring to me, despite the obvious limitations of having a dad who has been hurtful at times. I’ve hurt my kids sometimes; maybe, not in the same way.

Ann (00:53:20):

Your mom could have written the same book title, probably.

Abbie (00:53:23):

—100 percent. She is the one who taught me that. Growing up, if something didn’t go my way, my mother was never going to coddle me. She’s one of my best friends in the entire world. She’s so full of wisdom and grace, and she is the most servant-hearted person that I know. She comes to our house; we hire her to come to our house two days a week. People will be like, “My mom would never accept money”; or things like that. I’m like, “No, we don’t want her working for anyone else. She does not have the luxury of not working at 73 years old, so we will make sure that she is taken care of. We’ll make sure that our children have the luxury that I didn’t have.” My husband had grandparents he was close to, and that was wonderful. But I didn’t have either set of grandparents that I was close to because they died when I was young or because they weren’t the least bit interested in me.

(00:54:08)

And they have—we call her “Softa,”—that’s the Hebrew word for “Grandma.” They have Softa, who does anything for them; she will. She’s there: that incredible luxury is just so precious. I think I say in the book that one of the most impactful things that my dad did was be willing—because my mom’s the one with a degree—the kind of work that my dad could get was mostly blue-collar physical labor, that didn’t pay a ton. There’s this narrative that: “You can’t possibly stay home on a really small income.”

But my parents wanted to homeschool; they wanted to do something different than they had experienced. They felt that they were called to be the primary educators of their children—that what God talks about in Deuteronomy 6:6-8, that we are to teach the ways of God to our children as we walk, sit down, stand—they couldn’t make the math work to do that the way that they wanted to do—with their children at home with them. When I say, “them,” I mean my mom. My dad would drive an hour one way to a job; he worked for 12 hours; and then, drive an hour home.

Ann (00:55:13):

Wow.

Abbie (00:55:13):

We didn’t see him most weekdays for very long at all. That, in and of itself, is maybe a little bit of a mercy; because his personality wasn’t as naturally loving and nurturing as my mom’s. But he showed up at—he would come home from a shift and show up at my soccer game and cheer—and that’s what he could do. I think that there is great mercy from the Lord when we show up with what He’s given us and give it to Him the best way we know how, even if it’s very, very imperfect here on this earth. My upbringing—while not smooth sailing—was so different than theirs. They absolutely chose to break generational curses—

Ann (00:55:58):

So sweet.

Abbie (00:55:58):

—of neglect and abuse. We get to benefit from that and continue passing that down to our children.

Ann (00:56:03):

So you’ve had to forgive your dad.

Abbie (00:56:07):

Yeah.

Ann (00:56:08):

What did that look like, in the midst of—and how old were you?

Abbie (00:56:13):

I can’t tell you the exact moment when I realized that I didn’t hate him any longer because—

Ann (00:56:20):

So you did hate him, though.

Abbie (00:56:21):

I really feel like that’s probably, regrettably, the best word for how I felt toward him sometimes: strong bitterness and resentment.

Ann (00:56:31):

Because you just described him like: “He’s a good man. He was faithful in terms of working”; but there was a “but” in there.

Abbie (00:56:39):

Yeah; he was not enjoyable to be around, and he was not kind to my mom. Here I am, raised by this woman whom I idolize. A person [Abbie’s dad], who is having a manic episode, is not in complete control of themselves. Being able to see that happen has given me great compassion for other people who struggle; it’s not something I would wish on anybody. He just has a tendency toward: “We’re doing it this way,” and “It has to be this way.”

I am very careful not to just pass out details, willy nilly—because I have no business doing so—that’s not honoring to my father. You don’t need to know the details to know that it was a struggle. Someone, who’s just like, “Oh, so your dad had hard lines; and you just had to stick to them. Well, poor you.” No, it was more than that; and I don’t feel called to share specifics.

Ann (00:57:45):

—because he’s living, and because you’re trying to honor your mom and dad.

Abbie (00:57:48):

Yeah, we are called to do that as the first commandment with a promise that it may go well with you and that you may live long on the earth. I don’t want to violate what they deserve, biblically, as my parents in terms of honor; nor do I want to endanger myself, biblically. But just know that there were times of deep hurt—words said, actions done—that I found myself very, very angry that he was “getting away with it.” It’s very hard to hold someone—who, to some extent, doesn’t even remember some of the things that they did in the same way that you do; or in the same way that’s actually factual—accountable.

Again, they’re hurting someone I love; they’re being a source of stress to someone that I adore. You take up that cause, which we are actually called, Scripturally, not to do. We are told to fight injustice and to stand up for those who are helpless. But my mom’s not helpless; she has Christ as her guide, and she knows what she’s committed to. I had to really wrestle with a reckoning of which things were my burdens to bear, my offenses to forgive; and which things I was taking on that were not mine, just because I felt like I had a right to be angry because this was wrong. I would say early 30s, somewhere in that range.

Ann (00:59:24):

Well, even your chapter title about this—“The Hard Work of Forgiveness”—has the power to change the way we mother. You’re saying: “Because I forgave my dad and, if I hadn’t forgiven my dad, it would affect the way you parent.”

Abbie (00:59:41):

—100 percent. I don’t think there’s any way to live in constant bitterness, especially if you’re justifying it. I will say this—not really in defense, but I was struggling with it—I knew that my anger towards my dad, my resentment toward him, was not right. There are journals full, and so many tears and prayers prayed: “Lord, take this away, please. I don’t want to feel this way.” He ultimately did; but I think it was—I say the hard work of forgiveness is ongoing; it’s a process—he’s still capable of doing things that get my back up; but I’m able to stand outside it, and say, “This really doesn’t have anything to do with you.”

Ann (01:00:26):

That’s so good.

Abbie (01:00:27):

It’s not about me; he doesn’t hate me. He’s not trying to hurt me, specifically. Even if he is, that’s between him and the Lord. I have just seen—I talk about this in the chapter—my mom tells me how he prays for us every single day.

Ann (01:00:44):

Really?

Abbie (01:00:44):

Yeah; he’s a genuine believer. He knows God’s Word better than almost anyone I know; and yet, he still struggles. We see that with Paul: “The things I want to do are not the things that I do. The things that I don’t want to do, I keep doing those. Who can save me? What a wretched man am I. Praise God that the answer is Jesus.”

Ann: That’s so good.

Dave (01:01:02):

Yeah. Our listeners have heard my story, but it’s very similar. I didn’t realize—I was mid-30s—I had anger; I had bitterness that was coming out toward my boys and Ann that was really directed toward my dad. And when I went through that forgiveness journey—which didn’t take a day; it took years—I think it set me free to be the dad—

Ann (01:01:24):

It did set you free.

Dave (01:01:24):

—and husband that they deserved.

Ann: Totally.

Dave: I was locked up. Lewis Smedes says in a book, generations ago, Forgive and Forget: “When you forgive someone, you set a prisoner free, only to realize you’re the prisoner.”

Abbie (01:01:38):

Yeah, absolutely.

Dave (01:01:39):

That was me; sounds like you had a similar thing.

So now, as a mom with that sort of freedom, how has it made you different as a mother?

Abbie (01:01:51):

Well, there are times that I wonder if my children’s childhood is too ideal; because their daddy is naturally patient and kind. I am certainly fallible and have had to learn patience and less harshness, which I inherit from my dad; I don’t inherit that from my mom. I inherit common sense and no-nonsense pragmatism—all that—from probably both of them; but particularly, from my mom. I’ve had to learn to soften things—and to recognize when it’s a strength and when it’s a weakness—I don’t want to perpetuate and hand down.

Someone can be like, “Wow; [I] think [I’m] a really good parent, that [my] kids’ lives are ideal.” I think a little struggle is good for our kids to grow up with some sort of adversity in their lives.

Ann (01:02:40):

It’s your title of your book: Hard Is Not the Same Thing as Bad. Sometimes, when our kids struggle,—

Dave (01:02:46):

Character is developed in adversity.

Ann: Yes.

Abbie (01:02:48):

I know that was true for me even when, obviously, I was still struggling with a lot of character growth. We talk about things in our household—not delve into all the details—but even now, they’ll see my dad in an episode and tell me something he said or whatever. I’m able to say, “Okay, I understand Saba is struggling, but what was your response? How can we be gracious to that?”

Ann (01:03:15):

Yes, that’s good; instead of just judging. I think what, in the world, we can do is we stick up for our kids—we become protective, which we need to protect—but we can so judge the other person, without thinking, “What could my response be?”

Abbie (01:03:31):

Right. I started to say that earlier: that my mom refused to coddle me. I think she was probably thinking, “If your life goes similar to mine, and it will not have served you well to be coddled.” But she would always say—silly example: homeschool play—the mom picked her daughter—nepotism—it happens. Of course, I wanted the part. She didn’t go: “You should have gotten that part,” “You deserved it; you were better,” “That was not fair.” She said, “I’m sorry that happened, but dig deep into Jesus.” That was always the response.

Ann (01:04:11):

Oh, my goodness; I would’ve been like that: “The teacher’s so wrong!”

Abbie: She refused.

Ann: Wow!

Abbie (01:04:12):

I never grew up with this concept that I was owed something; my mom held that way out of the way.

Ann (01:04:18):

—the entitlement piece.

Abbie (01:04:19):

Never. Giving our kids the opportunity to look at the heart of what’s happening—especially, their own hearts—and being honest about our own hearts. I talk about things that I learned in M Is for Mama. I have this chapter called “The Gentleness Challenge.” After baby number eight, I think my hormones were pretty out of whack. I was dealing with something called postpartum rage, without even knowing there was a name for it.

Ann (01:04:46):

I haven’t heard that before

Abbie (01:04:47):

Well, I think they just name everything now. It’s, basically—

Ann: We all know what it means.

Abbie: Right. I had gone through periods of irritability; but this was intense, and it wasn’t abating. I was just annoyed all the time: harsh words, blame, noticing/faulting; because I felt so justified in it—that’s the thing—in that moment, it feels like the truth, which is why we can never relay on our emotions to speak truth.

Ann (01:05:15):

That’s true in marriage too/parenting: “They [emotions] are wrong; that is the truth.”

Abbie (01:05:20):

—[emotions] that’s in your head, yeah.

It kind of came to a head one day, where we were having people over for small group from church that night. I was lying down for a nap. I had a baby and seven other children. I had given them their list of things to do; we do this stuff all the time. I came down, and the first thing I saw on the stair was the thing that I had asked them to move. That was it: “I asked you to do this. You didn’t do it well. This is disrespectful.” I’m ranting at them.

My husband, who has been through the postpartum with me at a time or two at this point, is recognizing, “She’s struggling.” So, so kindly, he sat me down; and he said, “I know that that was hard. You have people coming over, and you’re stressed. You’re not getting a lot of sleep, and you have a lot in your life. But they didn’t do that on purpose; they’re just kids. We can practice again later.” It was all stuff that I was like: “He’s right; he’s right; he’s right; he’s right.” I already knew that—that’s what the Holy Spirit is telling me—while my flesh is saying, “You are justified to lose it on your kids.” Of course, the shame that immediately follows when you know you’ve overreacted just crushes you; but you get in a cycle that you feel like you cannot get out of.

He said, “I’m praying for you. We need to pray together, but we need to work on this,”—which was so kind of him to say, because he wasn’t the one struggling with this. He was willing to be in it with me, and not condemn me, which is so kind and so needed in marriage. I think it was that day or the next day, this idea just uploaded into my brain—it wasn’t from me; it was, literally, from the Lord—“You’re going to do a challenge with your family for 30 days. You’re going to tell them you’re doing it, where you will speak only kind words or you’ll keep your mouth shut. You will memorize Scripture on the topic together, as a family; and you’ll ask for the Lord’s help and their help to keep you accountable. When you mess up, you’ll apologize immediately and repent.”

For 30 days, with my kids’ help—and my oldest son, who is critical by nature, because his parents are critical by nature; and he’s the firstborn, and he’s the rule-follower and the responsible one—he was noticing everything. I could tell he was keeping his mouth shut, but he was starting to resent me; because I was consistently not reacting to adversity with kindness or equilibrium.

Ann: You’re just hard on everybody.

Abbie: Sometimes, it was as simple as—“Get a snack, Abbie. Come on; your glycemic index is not good at the moment. Get some calories in you,”—combat the physiological aspects. For 30 days, I worked on this.

Ann (01:08:06):

Okay, wait; so you bring the whole family in.

Abbie: Yeah.

Ann: You say, “Hey, guys, here’s what’s happening…”

Abbie (01:08:13):

Yes; acknowledge that I was doing wrong.

Ann (01:08:13):

So you’re admitting; you’re kind of confessing:—

Abbie (01:08:16):

Yes; not kind of; definitely.

Ann (01:08:17):

—“I have struggled with this; you’ve probably noticed—absolutely noticed—so here’s what I’m doing.” And what was their response when you said that?

Abbie (01:08:25):

They were so kind; a lot of them were. My oldest son was 12—you could tell he was like, “Okay, I’m holding you to it,” not in a mean way—but “You told me to. I’m going to do it.” And he did. And there were times I literally was [inhaling] huge breath to be like, “What in the world guys? You know not to do this. What are you doing?!”—which, okay; I don’t think that that is actually uncalled for, but not in an unkind way.

Ann (01:08:51):

And it can just be the tone.

Abbie (01:08:52):

Yes, cutting tone,—

Ann (01:08:53):

If you say,—

Abbie: —sarcasm.

Ann: —[asking a question] “What are you guys doing?” Instead of “What are you doing?!”

Abbie (01:08:57):

[Calm voice] “Why are you doing that? Come on; you know better,”—that kind of thing.

I would take a deep breath—and my son would look at me from across the room—I would close my mouth and walk outside. All I had—I didn’t have anything kind to say—I just had to walk up and down our porch, and go: “Lord, help,” “Lord, help,” “Lord, help. I am not any good at this.”

The fascinating thing that happened was that, in the process of training myself to delay speech—so that I had time to choose better words—my hormones got better.

Ann (01:09:35):

Wow.

Abbie (01:09:36):

I kid you not. I didn’t get them tested, but—

Ann (01:09:39):

You could tell; you could feel it.

Abbie (01:09:40):

Yes. The buzzing in my brain, the pressure in my chest, the brain fog and unable to find words except for the mean words, the immediate quicksilver anger—all those things—started to subside; I’m saying, “quickly.”

Ann: It’s almost like—

Dave (01:09:59):

—a neuro—

Ann (01:10:00):

—a neuro pathway change; but also, even that changed all your chemistry in your body.

Abbie (01:10:07):

Right; We are getting basically a negative dopamine hit—we’re getting a dopamine hit of negativity—anger becomes very addictive. You shoot up; and then, you regret it afterwards. But in the moment, it feels almost good.

Ann (01:10:19):

It’s a cycle.

Abbie (01:10:20):

Yes. My kids and I memorized the Lord’s Word—we memorized Ephesians 4—that was one of the chapters we memorized together: “Be completely humble and gentle, bearing with one another in love,” “Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouth,” “Don’t go to bed angry; don’t give the devil a foothold.” It’s so full.

Ann (01:10:36):

Whoa! You did a lot of that chapter.

Abbie (01:10:37):

—of Scripture.

Dave (01:10:38):

“Speak the truth in love.”

Abbie (01:10:39):

“Speak the truth in love”; yes. And “Only speak what’s edifying to those that hear it.” It was so convicting, and it was convicting my kids too. What am I doing?—I’m setting an example for them to treat others this way.

Ann (01:10:51):

They won’t forget that—especially, your 12-year-old—he’ll remember that as a father, with his words.

Abbie (01:10:56):

Yeah. I remember, years later, he said something. He’s very respectful in the way that he says it, but he was upset at me about something. I can’t remember what it was, but I think I had said something just really quickly/sharply. I was like, “I’m sorry about that, Bud.” I could tell he was kind of still frustrated with me. At a certain point, I just kind of looked at him, and I said, “Bud, I have confessed and repented; it is your job to forgive. At this point, I’m not going to do it perfectly in every instance; but you’re going to have to have some grace, because you’re going to want some grace. Be careful about holding…” I was speaking from personal experience, and I’ve told him that I was. So when I talk about forgiving my dad—my kids read this book someday—they’ve already heard it from me.

Ann: Yes, it’s not a surprise.

Abbie: They know that it was a struggle.

Ann (01:11:45):

I think, as moms—because I think with the book that we just had come out—about: “How to Speak”—what’s it called again?

Dave: Are you kidding me?!

Ann: I was going to say, “How to Speak the Truth in Love.”

Dave (01:11:57):

How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him. There you go.

Ann (01:12:01):

You guys, edit that out! I know they’re not going to.

Dave (01:12:04):

We’re going to keep that one in, for sure: “She doesn’t know the title of her own book.”

Ann: Obviously.

Abbie (01:12:09):

You do, though.

Dave: I do.

Abbie: That’s an important title.

Ann (01:12:11):

But I think, when God stopped me, because, as moms, we’re so quick—we respond; we react—

Abbie: We have to.

Ann: —that’s just part of being a mom, to protect them. But we’re also training them continually—our kids—and that can bleed into our husbands, and how we talk to our husbands, and to anybody.

Abbie (01:12:28):

There is a cultural trend to treat husbands as another child. It is so wrong.

Ann (01:12:33):

—so disrespectful.

Abbie (01:12:34):

Yes.

Dave (01:12:36):

And we feel it.

Ann (01:12:37):

Yeah, I know you do; I think that’s why I wrote about it.

But when I felt like—and I’m such a verbal processor—I think it; I say it. For God to say to me—here is what I had to ask: “Should I say it?”—instead of saying it immediately—“Should I say it?” I wanted to say it; I wanted it, and thought it would be so helpful. And it’s not a lot of times.

Abbie (01:12:57):

—or a zinger, like—

Ann (01:12:58):

That’s what you did: you walked out the door; you just prayed: “Lord, help me,” “Lord, help me,” because you want to say it.

Abbie (01:13:03):

Yeah. If there’s anybody listening, who’s like, “Can I do that too?”—I actually did it as a Instagram challenge—immediately, thousands of women showed up. What does that tell you?

Ann: We all struggle.

Ann (01:13:14):

This is not an isolated thing at all. Moms have a lot of pressure on them every single day. One of the areas that it leaks out is anger.

And then, people wanted a resource. I was just overwhelmed at the time; I was like, “I don’t have time to do this”; but we decided to include it as a resource that you could access in my first book. And then, people were like, “That’s not enough; I don’t want just a chapter.”

So there’s actually an e-book on my site, MIsForMama.net, that you can walk through 30 days. There’s a focus each day; there’s a Scripture; there’s a reminder—it’s very short—you could do it in five minutes. You could get your kids and husband to do it with you.

Ann: So good.

Abbie: But if you don’t know where to start—and feel like: “That’s not my personality; naturally, I wouldn’t; my head would…”—there’s a resource.

Dave (01:13:58):

Now, where do they find that?

Abbie (01:13:59):

MIsForMama.net, under my “Shop” tab at the top.

Dave (01:14:03):

Alright, we’ll put that in the show notes, and a link to this book in the show notes as well: FamilyLifeToday.com.

Let me ask you this: you didn’t use the word, “guilt”; but “Do all moms carry mom guilt?”

Abbie (01:14:17):

I think so. Actually, my first book, M Is for Mama, I wrote, basically, as a response to the FAQs that I get on a weekly Q&A called “Whaddya Wanna Know Wednesday”” that I do on my social media. I realized as I was—I started to say this a while back—I’m not a dreamer; I’m a pragmatist. The one thing that I always wanted to do was write books. But at a certain point on social media, I kind of resigned myself to the fact that I have too many kids and too much going on to actually ever get a book out. And then, Harvest House, my publisher, approached me and offered me this book deal.

At that point, I realized something amazing. One of my biggest intimidating things was: “How do you do research for a book when all your time is taken?”—I realized I was doing this “Whaddya Wanna Know Wednesday” market research every single week—I knew exactly what moms needed to hear. I knew exactly what the culture was telling them, and what they were struggling with; and I knew exactly where I needed to go to find the truth in God’s Word.

(01:15:16):

One of the big things is questions about mom guilt—the self-care thing was another one, which is why I wrote a chapter on that—“Birds and the Bees” is another one. It’s just the ones that I get asked every single week. I get 500 questions a week; and sometimes, there’s just a theme: ten people ask the same thing. One of them was mom guilt, and so I wrote a chapter called “Mom Guilt; and Then, Overcoming It” when you’re recognizing the difference between it and Holy Spirit conviction.

Ann (01:15:45):

Yeah, talk about that. What’s that mean?

Abbie (01:15:46):

Our culture basically tells us any guilt that we experience is a result of some sort of external force—the patriarchy, your mother’s expectations, the society that requires too much of you—and you shouldn’t even try to perform to their standards, which is true; God is our standard. But sometimes, God calls us to something, higher than society, that’s even harder. I’m not saying that’s an easy pass by any stretch.

There are times when we find ourselves—especially, with the comparison trap, which was another one that people I get asked about constantly—looking over here and feeling guilty that I haven’t had this garden done. The Lord hasn’t actually specifically called me to work on a garden right now. That’s not—in fact, my sister-in-law would say—“I’m building the garden, so you don’t have to; because you can have what I have.”

Ann: That’s sweet.

Abbie (01:16:39):

Isn’t that amazing?

And then, I’m right now called to do things that take my time—coming to see you guys while my husband is home, and my kids all work together to hold the fort—my sister-in-law’s like, “I’m not going to go fly to Florida; I’m not doing that.” So don’t take on guilt from something that you “are supposed to be doing” that you just decided by looking at someone else; or someone else told you that you were supposed to be doing; but it wasn’t from the Lord. So there’s that.

But then, there’s that still small voice that is poking your ribs about being bitter, or losing your temper, or the fact that—I’ll give this example from someone I follow on social media—a young mom with four children talked about the fact that she got convicted that she was [having] her kids [watch] a show to cook dinner every night; because it gave her freedom to get things done in peace, and to get them done efficiently and more quickly. And then, she realized, “Shoot; I just projected this ten years down the road. The message I’m sending my kids is: ‘Mom does things while you’re entertained’ but that’s not actually the family culture that I want.” The conviction was: “Bring your kids in, even when it’s hard”; and I am fully behind this; this is what we do.

I have my twin girls, my first set—this is the coolest full-circle moment—

Ann (01:17:56):

How old are they now?

Abbie (01:17:57):

They’re only 12; so it’s one of many, I’m sure, I’ll experience. The hardest toddlers—the most pull-your-hair-out, like nonsensical emotional histrionics ever—they are actually releasing a baking book in 2026. Because four years ago, when their twin brothers—which by the way, they’re all born on the same calendar day—did you know that?

Dave: No.

Ann (01:18:20):

What?!

Dave: Really?

Abbie (01:18:22):

Both of my sets of twins were born on September 24, eight years apart.

Ann: Come on. This is such a God-thing.

Abbie: Yeah, it really is. When the babies were little bitty, they wanted to start baking on Saturday mornings. I was like, “You’ve got to be kidding me. You’re eight, and you’re no good; you can’t bake.”

Ann: It’s so hard to bake at those ages.

Abbie: They wanted to do it every Saturday morning, which was one of the few days when I could go to back to bed for a couple of hours after being up, sometimes, ten times a night. I was like, “Lord, I don’t want to say, ‘No.’” But there was this conviction that I was supposed to [say, “Yes.”] Little did I know they would get offered an actual legit publishing deal, because they’ve been baking for four years. My publisher was like, “There’s a hole in the tween baking market; do you girls want to do it?” I was like, “Yes, we do.”

You just don’t know—you can’t guarantee that outcome, of course—but you just don’t know what your faithfulness to do those things the Holy Spirit is actually convicting you to do to change the culture and to be a chain-breaker can reap benefits later. It’s Galatians 6:9: “Don’t grow weary in doing good; for in the proper time you’ll reap a harvest”—the clincher of it all is—“if you do not give up.”

Ann (01:19:34):

That’s good.

So that guilt-piece; did you ever go to bed at night—put your head on the pillow and just recant—

Dave (01:19:42):

—because she did.

Ann (01:19:43):

—some of the negative things you said?

Abbie (01:19:45):

Yeah, 100 percent.

Ann (01:19:45):

As you’re talking to all these women, having that mom guilt, what were your tips?

Abbie (01:19:52):

So one, God’s mercies are new every morning. If we don’t live like that, we are literally shoveling away God’s goodness with both hands, while He’s pouring it into our laps. Why would we ever do that? So rather than making that trite; wake up, and say, “What do I need to actually repent my kids of verbally today?”

Ann (01:20:10):

Yes.

Abbie (01:20:11):

Maybe not an 18-month-old; they may not understand: “Mom is so sorry that…” They’re like, “Just feed me please.” But you can repent to the Lord—and as much as you need to—the face-to-face people. And then, make it your goal to work on that specific thing as opposed to just simply wallowing in guilt. “The Lord has not given us a spirit of fear; but of love, power, and a sound mind.” That means that we are given bright and logical minds, as parents, to say, “Okay, here’s the problem. I’m going to solve this in the Lord’s strength. We are more than—overcomers—we are not victims.”

Ann (01:20:49):

I think that’s really good. And also, take your thoughts captive [to obedience to Christ]. If you already confessed it/repented, it’s done.

Abbie (01:20:56):

Yes; Satan at that point—Satan’s the one—

Ann: He’s the accuser.

Abbie: I tell my kids, all the time: “Condemnation is from Satan; conviction is from the Holy Spirit. You will recognize the difference when one keeps you stuck in self-loathing; and the other gives you the motivation to ask the Lord how to change.”

Ann (01:21:12):

As moms, it can feel justified, like, “I deserve to wallow.” No you don’t; Jesus died for that. We don’t have to wallow if we’ve already done the business: we’ve apologized to our kids; we’ve confessed; we have [said], “Okay, here’s what I’m going to do different.” That’s it; it’s done. I think Satan steals our joy when we wallow in it.

Ann: Yeah, 100 percent.

Dave (01:21:34):

Okay; I got to ask you—in one section in our book about parenting—we said: “We love the teenage years.” We loved them. So many parents are like, “Ugh.”

Ann (01:21:45):

How many teens do you have right now?

Abbie (01:21:46):

I have three. We’ll have five—when this comes out—

Ann: —airs.

Abbie: —I’ll have five; yes—

Ann: Wow!

Abbie: —which is the most—I’ve done the math—it’s the most I’ll ever have. It’s spaced so that I will have five, multiple times; but I will never have six teenagers.

Ann (01:22:03):

Okay, so what do you think of it?

Dave: Do you love it? Why?

Abbie (01:22:05):

I love it! I think that they are the coolest human beings.

Ann: They’re fascinating.

Abbie: —genuinely. They are so much fun! Are they knuckleheads?—sometimes, yes; but so am I! To classify an entire stage as “untenable”; or to pass over it because “We’re just going to get through the fog”; or to make these dire predictions—people will ask: “Well, what are you going to do when your child does this?” I say to them, “I’m not going to assume,”—I’m not saying it won’t happen; I’m not going to say it can’t happen.

Ann: But you’re not going to think the worst.

Abbie: No; I will prepare my mind in such a way that I can take things captive to the Lordship of Jesus Christ—that I can be prepared to speak words of life—rather than screaming, and yelling, and losing it. That I can know God’s ways so that I can put those guardrails up, and know when that’s needed; and when that needs to loosen up some.

Absolutely, don’t be willy nilly as you go through parenting; but not to put one hand over your eyes, and look through your fingers, and dread of what’s surely coming. It may not ever come in the way they tell you it will; you’ll have wasted so much time. The Bible is really clear that we are called not to be anxious about tomorrow. And that would include the stages in tomorrow that we haven’t gotten to yet.

Ann (01:23:23):

What about the parents, who are just like, “Oh, it’s so hard; they’re so rebellious. They speak without any kind of honor or respect. I don’t know what to do.” I think, sometimes, it feels like teens are pushing away; and parents just let them instead of pursuing them.

Abbie (01:23:42):

Yes. I think you answered your own question. You are the father and the prodigal son. You do not ever stop loving them while also holding them accountable for right and wrong. The ability to physically do that wanes as they get bigger than you. As they get to be a legal adult—our legal-adult son still lives at home and is very honoring of our house rules—but literally, still comes home at a curfew, even though he could stay until 2:00 in the morning; and we wouldn’t legally be able to do anything about it. But he has no interest in doing so; still enjoys being around his siblings. Part of it’s his personality; part of it’s the family culture; part of it is the grace of God.

But for those who are already—let’s say I get messages from people who are talking about their 17-year-old son screaming curse words at them—you don’t have the same recourses that you do when they were 3; you just don’t. Part of that may be because you didn’t take advantage of those or weren’t able to. Maybe, you’re a single parent; or you had to share custody; or just didn’t—

Ann (01:24:51):

You’ve been working all day.

Abbie (01:24:53):

—you didn’t know what you know now—you hadn’t grown in the Lord—things like that.

But it is never too late to turn a corner, to turn over a new leaf. I’m going to use all the cliches to say, “I will be faithful now to teach you God’s Word as you lie, walk, and stand; as I lie, walk, and stand with you. I can’t make you accept it; I can’t change your behavior.”

We can change some behavior and make there be some acceptance when they’re two, five, seven; they are under our authority—and we can say: “You will not go to this,” “We are not going to participate in that; we’re going to turn that off,”—we have that ability. I think that’s part of our job, as parents, to exercise that wisely.

And with a teen—especially, an older teen—you’re losing some of that ability. But if you can maintain that connection—that they never doubt that you love them; that you want the best for them; that you love God first, and then, you love them—there’s no outcome guarantee; but I guarantee you that you will be changed as a result of being faithful in that.

Ann (01:25:57):

Yeah, that’s really good.

I love this book, Abbie. It’s beautifully written—the cover is beautiful—even the setup of it: at the end of each chapter, you have the narrative/the Word’s response to “hard.”

Dave (01:26:10):

I like “The Dad Thought”; that’s what I like.

Ann (01:26:11):

I do too. We did that in ours, too; I think it’s good to get the man’s perspective.

Abbie (01:26:17):

Yeah; after I wrote M Is for Mama, everybody asked me where “D Is for Daddy” was. I was talking to you, off air, before we started about how I don’t think there’s too many men who would appreciate a book called “D Is for Daddy.” My husband’s like, “Ew! I don’t feel ‘Ew!’ about M Is for Mama; I feel ‘Ew!’ about ‘D Is for Daddy.’”

Dave (01:26:31):

He Is right.

Ann: You think so?

Dave: Oh, yeah.

Abbie (01:26:33):

Oh, yeah, 100 percent. You get handed that; and the dude’s like, “This is no, just no,” kind of thing. But I had been asked so many times; I was like, “Shaun, you really need to contribute to the end of this.” He’s got so much wisdom; he’s good with words. He’s just someone I want everybody to meet and love as much as I do. I was so glad he got to do that.

Ann (01:26:56):

That’s cool.

I love that you have “A Christian Response to Hard”; and then, you have “Action Steps,” “Questions,” and “A Prayer.”

Abbie (01:27:02):

As moms, one of the things—that’s really hard to do with as many distractions that we have—even with short chapters like these is to be like, “What did I just read?”

Ann (01:27:10):

“Now, what do I do?”

Abbie (01:27:11):

Yeah; “Now, what do I do?” Exactly. We need that clear direction and the condensing it down to its essentials.

Ann: I love it.

Dave (01:27:18):

We’re going to have you back to talk about a book that’s coming out right around now: You Bet Your Stretch Marks. I just wanted to say it again.

Abbie (01:27:28):

Did you feel uncomfortable saying that?

Ann: Every woman is like, “Oh, yeah; I know what that is.

Abbie: Yeah; “I know what that is.” All the dudes look at me, like—

Ann: —“What?”

Abbie: —“What did she just say?”

Dave (01:27:35):

I was just going to ask, “What’s that about?” I guess you guys already know.

Abbie (01:27:38):

Physically speaking—interestingly enough: I’ve had ten children, and I don’t have any physical stretch marks from having children—I think it’s just a genetic thing.

Ann (01:27:48):

—even with those two sets of twins.

Abbie (01:27:51):

Yes; so strange. I’m as surprised as anybody. But I will tell you where I do have stretch marks—on my soul, on my character, on my personality, on my ability to be patient through hard things—You Bet Your Stretch Marks is essentially the culmination of the trilogy that started with M Is for Mama; continued with Hard Is Not the Same Thing as Bad; and ends with this encouragement that is a resounding exclamation-point answer to: “Okay, I did all this; is it worth it?” “You bet your stretch marks.”

It comes back around to: “Why?” Not because of what it produces in them—although, I do think that there will be effects with faithful parenting; I do think the Lord will bring a harvest and produce fruit in them; and He is faithful to do that—it’s what it makes in you because it is worth it if we are faithfully following God, no matter what the results are on anybody else.

Ann: Yes.

Ann (01:28:44):

Thanks for watching. If you like this episode,—

Dave (01:28:47):

You better like it.

Ann (01:28:48):

—just hit that “Like” button.

Dave (01:28:49):

And we’d like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the “Subscribe”—

can’t say the word, “subscribe”—hit the “Subscribe” button. I don’t think I can say this

word!

Ann: I can subscribe.

Dave: Look at that! You say it so easily. “Subscribe”; there he goes!

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