How Shame Tormented My Life | Heather Holleman

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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The Disappearing Seat (plus bonus partner clip)

Guest:Heather Holleman

Release Date:September 16, 2025

Heather (00:00:00):

The beginning of Ephesians 2 talks about you can follow the ways of the world. A lot of the tables that you are fighting for, you want a seat there because you believe it’s going to bring you life. Well, guess what? That table’s probably following the way of the world. What I’m learning is if I’m fighting for a seat at the table, even if it’s a good thing, it might be an idol for me.

Ann (00:00:22):

Yes.

Dave (00:00:25):

So we have Heather Holleman back in the studio. It’s been a while.

Heather (00:00:30):

It has. I’m back

Dave (00:00:30):

From the Penn State Nittany Lions.

Heather (00:00:34):

That’s right.

Dave (00:00:35):

We’re big 10 people over in Michigan.

Heather (00:00:37):

You know, I’m a Michigan grad. My PhD is from Michigan.

Dave (00:00:39):

Yeah, but you can’t be a Wolverine.

Heather:

I’m not.

Ann (00:00:41):

Did you hear that? She just dropped the PhD.

Heather:

I did.

Ann:

I love it.

Heather:

I have to say that. No, I’m a huge Penn State fan. I mean a huge. I have season basketball tickets. I follow all the players. I love Penn State.

Heather (00:00:52):

So I’m sorry.

Ann:

So you’ve become a traitor.

Heather:

This is not going well, is it? I’m a traitor.

Ann (00:00:56):

Yeah, that’s okay. Because you know what? We’re secretly Ohio State fans.

Heather:

That’s even worse for me.

Ann (00:01:02):

We grew up in Ohio State.

Dave (00:01:03):

You can’t say it in Michigan. You literally can’t say it.

Heather (00:01:06):

I’m actually glad that you’re Ohio State fans.

Ann:

Why?

Heather:

Because it’s a fun, I love Ohio State, the community. It reminds me a lot of Penn State. Just the love the students have for their school and God’s doing a lot on that campus with the football team. I love following what’s happening at Ohio State.

Ann:

—with the revivals.

Heather:

Yeah. So we can both be enemies. I mean, Michigan can be our enemy here and we can connect to that.

Dave (00:01:24):

Yeah, Big 10 is good.

Ann (00:01:27):

What’s your Doctorate in?

Heather (00:01:28):

English literature. And I focused on shame actually in 19th century literature. So you’ll see that those themes come out a lot in my writing is how to help people recover from shame. A lot of my characters deal with shame.

Ann (00:01:41):

Okay.

Heather (00:01:41):

Yeah, now you know where to go.

Dave (00:01:43):

Are we going there already? I want to talk about my PhD.

Heather:

I know. Let’s go.

Dave:

Oh, I didn’t get one.

Ann (00:01:49):

But if you’re talking about shame, you’ve dealt with shame. So take us back to that.

Heather (00:01:54):

Yes, yes. Well, what fascinates me about shame is it’s one of the most tormenting emotions a human can experience, and it’s kind of where Satan wants us to live. And shame is like, “I’m a bad person. Everyone thinks I’m a bad person.” And so I remembered being in grad school and really struggling with the idea that even though I was forgiven of sin, I couldn’t experience it myself. I just kind of walked around in shame. I had to quote, “There’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,” but I just always felt like I wasn’t living up to things. It’s a tormenting sense of inferiority. That’s what shame is. So I decide to really study it. How do people recover from shame?

Dave (00:02:34):

Hey, wait, wait, I got to stop you.

Heather (00:02:35):

Are you feeling tormenting inferiority?

Dave (00:02:39):

No. I mean that definition.

Heather (00:02:40):

Yeah, it’s tormenting inferiority. Yeah.

Dave (00:02:43):

I’ve never heard it because it’s tormenting. It doesn’t stop. Plagues you. It hammers you, right?

Heather (00:02:48):

Yes.

Ann (00:02:50):

I feel like it bleeds into every area of your life.

Heather (00:02:50):

Yeah, and you want to hide. That’s how you know it appears in the garden; Adam and Eve want to hide.

Ann (00:02:56):

I don’t think you’ve ever experienced that.

Dave (00:02:56):

Why are you poking me? You just poked me.

Ann (00:02:59):

I don’t think that you’ve really dealt with shame.

Dave (00:03:02):

I wonder if I’ve covered it up so well—

Ann (00:03:07):

Maybe.

Dave (00:03:08):

—with success on a football field and that kind of thing, that it’s really a coverup that—I don’t know.

Ann (00:03:14):

Do we all deal with it?

Heather:

Shame and narcissism are two sides of it.

Dave:

Oh, now you’re saying I’m a narcissist.

Heather:

No, no, no, it’s funny.

Dave:

This is really going well. How about I leave it and you two talk.

Heather:

Can we start over? Can we go all the way back and start over?

No, I was also interested in that too, either like an excessive focus on yourself, so they’re both the same thing. You’re excessively focused on yourself and how other people are perceiving it.

Ann (00:03:40):

You’re right because both do that.

Heather (00:03:42):

And you become enslaved to yourself and the opinions of others. What I love about when you have Jesus in your life, He can heal you from both conditions. When you’re in a community that loves you and knows everything you’ve done and still accepts you, you can really experience freedom—

Ann (00:04:00):

The gospel.

Heather (00:04:00):

—from shame. Yeah, I love how Tim Keller said it in one of his sermons, that when you feel ashamed and Satan’s accusing you, you say, “You’re right. I owe that. Charge it to Jesus’ account.” And then you can even say to Satan, “I’m even worse than you can imagine.”

Dave (00:04:15):

Yeah.

Heather (00:04:15):

I’m actually worse than you can imagine. Jesus paid for it. He says, Charge it to Jesus’ account. He will pay what I owe.”

Ann:

That’s good.

Heather:

I heard that in a sermon when I was at the gym, and I just started crying about the freedom of the gospel all over again.

Ann (00:04:27):

So as you studied it, were you helped to be set free?

Heather (00:04:32):

Well, yes, because I was fascinated by Paul writes about the difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow, and I didn’t know what that meant. He’s talking about shame. Godly sorrow is “I’m guilty. Will you cover my sin?” And Jesus says, “Yes, absolutely. Your sin is covered.” Worldly sorrow is, “I’m terrible. There’s no remedy. I’m going to walk around and be sorrowful my whole life.” Because you live in shame, which is not “I’ve done a bad thing,” but it’s “I’m a bad person.” Yeah, it’s deep. You guys are going deep. There’s a whole, you can study the psychology, give shame and guilt, and there’s all kinds of different words people talk about with it.

Ann (00:05:11):

I think I was seven years old after I had been abused by several different people sexually. And I remember being seven and saying to myself, I can actually see where I was when I thought there must be something wrong with me.

Heather (00:05:28):

Yeah, you internalize shame, that’s right.

Ann (00:05:31):

Yes, and so it’s “I’m broken. The people aren’t wrong. It must be me.” So do most of us have something like that that’s happened in our lives that we’ve internalized it?

Heather (00:05:40):

Most people do. Children especially right around the age that I care most about, the eight- to 12-year-olds. Writing for middle grade, writing for children, they do get a sense, “Something’s wrong with me, something’s not right. I’m bad. I feel ashamed.” And a lot of the characters I write about deal with that. And that’s why I love when it says that God sees us and loves us and He understands our heart better than we do, I just love inviting children to know Jesus like that and begin to heal those parts of them that just are carrying shame.

Ann (00:06:13):

I mean, this is going to be kind of a deeper question, but you deal with that age group. What is—

Dave (00:06:17):

We’ve already gone super deep. We’re five minutes in, boom.

Ann (00:06:19):

But what has happened in a child’s life around that age that they’re feeling that the significance of shame in their lives? I mean, that’s scary. As a parent listening or a grandparent, it’s like, wait, can I help my child or grandchild escape that?

Heather (00:06:39):

Right. Well, what’s difficult about this conversation is it’s not necessarily traumatic events. It could be anything. It could be not having a seat at the lunch table, which I care a lot about—those little moments that, or if a friend rejects you or you’re rejected by someone at school, or even if you get a really bad grade, these are things that little kids internalize and they don’t have the language to talk about it. They don’t even know the words to use. And often they want to hide. They don’t want to talk about it. They hide alone in their bedroom. So I have characters, I have a character, she does that. She doesn’t know what to do, and finally she opens up to an older friend to help her, and she begins to read her Bible for the first time. And so yeah, little children can experience that. There are obviously a lot of things, marriages that aren’t—if there’s divorce, if there’s children that are just experiencing those kinds of things, don’t forget things like loss of a pet, things that just where they’re carrying grief and they think, “Am I a bad person? Did I do something wrong that God would let this happen to me?” All those things can happen in a 12-year old’s mind.

Ann (00:07:50):

That’s so sad because as a parent, if you’re listening and you’re a parent, you might have a child that expresses all of that, but you also might have a child that’s very inward in their processing and you’re trying to pull it out and you can’t even get it to come out.

Dave (00:08:05):

How do you as a parent see it do? I mean, we got to be experts, and we got to be watching as parents. We’ve got a middle school girl.

Ann (00:08:12):

You get her books. That’s what you do.

Heather:

Well, it’s hard to see. A couple things and of course I’m not an expert in the therapeutic world, but one thing I would say with my own daughters and in my own life is you’re looking for things like changes in personality, changes in appetite, changes in school performance—

Ann (00:08:28):

—withdrawing.

Heather (00:08:29):

—sleeping too much, being withdrawn. But that’s why I love the power of storytelling because you can have a child read a book where shame is happening to another character, and then suddenly you can talk about it. And I love what story does, just how Jesus taught in parables. There’s something really powerful about having a little girl read a book where that character can’t find a seat at the lunchroom, and she goes home and cries and doesn’t know what to do. Suddenly you have a great conversation with your child about that. So that’s one of the reasons I was motivated to write stories for little kids.

Dave (00:09:01):

How many have you written? This is one; we’re looking at The Disappearing Seat.

Heather (00:09:05):

Yes, and there’s going to be four in this series. The first book is called This Seat Saved, and it’s about that moment in middle school when you realize you’re not popular. Although Dave, were you popular in middle school? Were you? I feel like you were as an athlete.

Ann (00:09:18):

Oh, he was the man. Yes, very.

Dave (00:09:21):

Yeah, and I think it was a coverup. I was the musician. I was the lead singer in a band, flipping my hair around, thinking, “I’m really cool.”

Heather (00:09:28):

You were, in middle school even?

Dave (00:09:30):

That’s when we started the Daydreamers and my mom made me, what do you call it, Nehru jacket and everybody else had t-shirts. And everybody’s like, “Why does he get the”—

Heather:

Because you were the lead.

Dave:

I was the whatever—but yeah. And then, yeah, I was on the basketball court, football field, baseball field. So I always felt that. Yeah, I felt like I was always this. I’m a narcissist. That’s what I am. You said it earlier.

Heather (00:09:53):

Well, popularity—no. Popularity is a resource to be used, and it puts a lot of pressure. I do have a popular character in the series, and she deals with that; what it means to be popular and how hard it is for her. So there’s a lot to talk about there too.

Ann (00:10:07):

But I think as I’ve read these books, each character is somebody that you know or you’ve met in school, so you have all the different types of kids in the school. And even to read it as a middle schooler, you’re going to identify with one of those.

Heather (00:10:24):

A lot of readers do that. They’ll send little notes, and they’ll say, “Oh, I wasn’t like your main character Elita. I was more like the popular girl, Margo,” or “I’m more like the boy Steven,” or something like that.

Ann (00:10:36):

Yeah. Well, tell us why is this so important? Because when we interviewed you before, I feel like you have a theme, Heather—I

Heather (00:10:45):

Yes.

Ann (00:10:45):

—from Ephesians 2.

Heather (00:10:46):

Ephesians 2 is the, if you’re going to memorize one chapter in the entire Bible, if it’s not Romans 8, it’s got to be Ephesians 2:1-10. Everything you need to know to survive your life and to know Jesus is Ephesians 2:1-10. And God—

Dave (00:11:00):

Do you have the whole thing memorized?

Heather (00:11:02):

Well, I think I do. Do you want to say it with me? I don’t have notes here, people. It starts “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live in which you followed the ways of the world, the kingdom of the air who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature.” And then is the next one that we were objects deserving of wrath.

Dave (00:11:29):

And follow its desires and thoughts. Like the rest we were by nature

Heather (00:11:31):

Yeah, deserving of wrath. And then it says,

Dave (00:11:33):

Are you ESV? What are you reading here?

Heather (00:11:35):

I think that’s NIV. What do you want?

Dave (00:11:38):

I have NIV.

Heather (00:11:38):

Yeah.

Dave (00:11:39):

It’s close, yeah.

Heather (00:11:39):

Okay. But the best part is Ephesians 2:6.

(00:11:44):

Well, the verse before it says, “But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive in Christ.” And then that’s the part that talks about, “It’s by grace you’ve been saved.” But it says, “And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.” And I realized when I read that verse that Jesus was inviting me here. I had a seat at the greatest table with the greatest King, but I was living a life where I was fighting for a seat at the table that I thought would make my life important. And now that I’m almost 50 years old, I realize I can apply that verse every day.

Ann (00:12:21):

Every day, all of us.

Heather (00:12:22):

Every day. I enter a room, maybe I’m at a table I shouldn’t be sitting at in my life. Maybe I’m at a table where I’m getting older. I need to let other people sit at that table. I need to leave and go to a different table. What table am I believing that’s where life is going to be? So I wrote Seated with Christ for Adults, and then my publisher was the one that said so many moms read this book and they want this message for their little girls. That’s why I wrote Young Adult, well, it’s actually middle grade for eight- to 12-year-olds. I wanted to prepare them for that moment in middle school where the wound begins where you realize you don’t have a seat at the table with the popular girls.

Ann:

Or it’s a disappearing seat.

Heather:

Or it’s a disappearing seat.

(00:13:04):

So the second book is called The Disappearing Seat, because my character Elita learns she is seated at the best table with Jesus. She has a real encounter with the Lord. But then what happens when you think everyone else has a better life than you do? And they get all the blessings from God, and your blessings have disappeared?

Ann:

And everybody experiences that.

Heather:

Even me, 50 years old, I’m like, “Wait.” So it’s really about jealousy. So this book follows the part of the Seated with Christ adult book that’s really, that you really have access to all the riches of God’s kingdom. You don’t really need to worry about being wealthy or that pursuit of wealth the way a lot of people do. So I wanted my character to realize kind of the secret to overcoming jealousy. And we talk in the book about savoring your life, which is deeply rooted in the social science research of gratitude and being positive about your life. So I put all that in there for little girls to start being grateful for the things God’s given them.

Ann (00:14:04):

I know it’s for little girls, but can I just admit that on the plane last night, I read one of them, the whole thing, and I cried because it relates to all of us, every single person,

Dave (00:14:15):

She does not cry much.

Heather (00:14:17):

Wow.

Dave (00:14:17):

That means you touched—

Ann (00:14:18):

I do with good books and a good movie though.

Dave (00:14:21):

Yeah. So do I.

Heather (00:14:22):

Well, I think—

Dave (00:14:23):

I even read it.

Heather (00:14:24):

Oh, this is good.

Dave (00:14:25):

And I got to tell you, I’m like, I’m reading a middle school girl book, and it was awesome.

Ann (00:14:31):

Theologically speaking.

Dave (00:14:32):

You’re such a great writer, and all the themes were coming through. I’m like, this is the kind of book parents should be discussing and reading with their kids.

Heather (00:14:41):

I hope so. My dream for little girls and their moms and boys read it too. Just so you know, a lot of boy readers, they even love the journaling part, which some people think “Oh, is this just for little girls?”

Ann (00:14:52):

It’s not a girly girl kind of—

Heather (00:14:54):

No, it’s for—I mean, she loves nature. There’s a lot of science in there. But she develops a journaling practice, which I think is so supported by all the mental health research. If you can get young kids to even write down five things they’re thankful for, five things they need from God each day, because they carry so much anxiety. So if you say to a child, which we’ve been doing with the girl, my girls really almost their whole life.

Ann (00:15:22):

How old are your girls now?

Heather (00:15:23):

Well, now I know, Ann, one is 24 and one just turned 20.

Ann (00:15:29):

But you’ve done, that’s what I mean. You’ve done this.

Heather (00:15:31):

We’ve done it for decades, yeah.

Ann (00:15:32):

So five things you’re thankful for, five things you need—

Heather (00:15:37):

—you need from God. And it comes out of Psalm 5:3 where David says, “In the morning, oh Lord, you hear my voice; in the morning I lay my requests before you and wait in expectation.” Is that not the best thing?

Ann:

So good.

Heather:

So you can say to a child, “I know you’ve got a lot on your mind.” And it’s not a diary. Nobody’s writing paragraphs. It’s, write down the five things you want to trust God for today. And then they start—I call it unburdening, all those things they’re worried about. Because doesn’t the word say, “Cast your cares upon him”? He daily bears our burdens.

Ann (00:16:11):

I mean, part of that confession, when you confess something, you’re telling the truth.

Dave (00:16:17):

Tell God the truth, yeah.

Heather:

I love that.

Ann (00:16:17):

So in this you’re telling God—it’s not the repentance part, it’s telling God the truth of all you’re feeling.

Dave (00:16:22):

I was thinking let’s do it.

Heather (00:16:24):

Right now. What do you mean?

Dave (00:16:25):

Five things you’re thankful for.

Heather (00:16:26):

Okay, five things I’m thankful for. First of all, the little lizards you guys have here in Florida, number one.

Dave:

They’re fast.

Heather:

Number two, what is it going to be like 94 degrees today? I thank the Lord for the sunshine because as you know in Detroit and where I am in state college, we do not get this vitamin D sun situation. I’m thankful for the delicious coffee, little simple things. And the Harvard Gratitude Study says it works. It changes your brain to be grateful.

Ann (00:16:53):

Changes your brain.

Heather (00:16:54):

I’m thankful for you guys. I just knew I would be delighted. And the fifth thing I’m thankful for is that my husband, Ashley, is with me today, and he has always been the biggest supporter of my writing, and he’s a joy. So after you write your five things every morning, you write five things you need from God, anything you need. And then the best part of the journal that I designed for kids that I use every day, then you write down five people you’re praying for. Why? Because you have a purpose to seek and save the lost, to be a blessing to people. And it helps middle schoolers who are profoundly self-involved to take their eyes off themselves, to think about other people.

Dave (00:17:33):

Yeah, yeah.

Heather (00:17:34):

How old are your grandkids? How old’s the oldest one?

Ann:

Ten.

Dave (00:17:36):

Olive is ten.

Heather (00:17:38):

Olive, I love this. So ten-year-olds reading the book, they begin to think, “Oh wait, there are people around me that I could pray for. I could bless them.” And then there’s a little section to write down things you’re learning from God’s word. Now a lot of parents are like, “Well, can that happen?” Yes. I started journaling when I was 12 years old, and I really believe God began to teach me from the Psalms, even as a 12-year-old. I had verses I would memorize and trust God for even when I was a little girl writing down. I still have those journals so I can go back and see the faithfulness of God and the things I was worried about and how He was faithful.

Ann (00:18:16):

And our granddaughter Olive has a journal.

Heather:

Oh, I love it.

Ann:

It’s really important to her. And so even as I was reading your books, I thought, “This is so sweet,” because you’re having an example of another girl doing it.

Heather (00:18:29):

Yes.

Ann (00:18:30):

And then the stickers and then even when she’s praying for people, I’m like, this is so genius because these girls, if I read this book, you’re giving them practical practices that they could do the rest of their life.

Heather (00:18:44):

Yeah, it’s simple spiritual disciplines. I mean, a lot of people don’t journal because—I don’t know what you were thinking, Dave, when I say, “Do you keep a journal?”—you’re thinking “You’re writing a lot every day. Nobody wants to write all day long.” These are little lists that you make, and it helps you organize your thoughts.

And the other thing that’s important is when God doesn’t answer your prayer, when things seem like they’ve disappeared, what do you do? And so that my character, it’s like waiting on God. One of our family mottos is “Every rejection is God’s protection.” So she begins to see, “Well maybe because God loves me and He’s so good to me, I know that He’s working for my good even if my blessings seem to have disappeared.”

Dave (00:19:30):

How do you—

Heather (00:19:30):

Do you keep a journal, Dave, do you, will you?

Dave (00:19:32):

No, I need to.

Ann:

But you used to a lot.

Heather (00:19:33):

You probably have to write down a lot of your thoughts.

Dave (00:19:37):

My journal is probably preaching.

Heather (00:19:38):

Right. You preach on—

Dave (00:19:41):

You’re working through the manuscript from the text, but then you’re always like, “Where’s my life fit in here?” And so you unveil your journal to your people as you—and you speak all over the country. Same thing you’re doing.

Heather (00:19:52):

That’s a good way to say it. You’re unveiling your journal as you preach.

Ann:

That’s really good.

Dave (00:19:56):

I’ve never said that before.

Heather:

That’s what you’re doing.

Dave:

You sort of are, sometimes very raw.

Heather (00:20:02):

Well, I know because you guys, you just preached on Ann—well, you included Ann’s situation with her heart.

Dave (00:20:09):

Yeah. It was sort of weird driving in here today, honestly. Did you feel that?

Ann:

No.

Heather (00:20:12):

Because so much that has gone on with you all.

Dave (00:20:16):

Yeah, it was just like the last time we were here, we went home and found out she was 99 percent blocked in her widow maker artery. I mean it’s a—

Ann (00:20:23):

Well, no it wasn’t the widow maker.

Dave (00:20:24):

Well it was off the widow maker, but I like to say widow maker; it makes it more dramatic.

Heather (00:20:29):

Hey, you’re a storyteller. Get the drama in there.

Dave (00:20:30):

But no driving in, I felt like, “Wow, that was—it’s been a couple of weeks.” But that moment, I mean sitting in that hospital, and it’s a long story, but a lot of people that we’ve talked to since said they went in, they did a catheterization, found the blockage, put the stent in, you went home. They did the catheterization on Tuesday night—

Ann:

—the heart cath.

Dave:

—and we didn’t get the stent until Friday.

Ann:

They had to transfer because—

Dave:

Wait, wait, wait, wait. So it took forever.

Heather:

You’re in the hospital that whole time?

Ann:

Yeah.

Dave:

We had to wait until Friday. It was a long day.

Heather (00:21:01):

Did you feel like God sustained you and was with you the whole time? Did you feel close to Him or was it just panicky the whole time?

Dave (00:21:09):

Look at that. She’s interviewing us now. I love it.

Heather (00:21:11):

Well, I already secretly asked Ann about this, and she was telling me how God used her to kind of talk to people and bless people and encourage them. Did you find that? I don’t know. I’m interested in when bad things happen. I was telling Ann, what if that’s not the story? What if you’re in this terrible situation because God has a purpose for you there that doesn’t have to do with what you think it is.

Ann (00:21:33):

And I told Heather that was my first thought in the ER. As soon as we got there, I’m like, “Well, I am here because God has a purpose for me being here. And it’s not about me necessarily.”

Heather:

That’s so mature.

Dave (00:21:42):

Man, you are so spiritual.

Heather (00:21:43):

That’s what my dream would be for my life, to be able to think that when bad things happen, like, “Well God.”

Dave (00:21:50):

I was like, “Why are we here?”

Heather (00:21:52):

Yeah.

Dave (00:21:53):

Why are we here? This can’t be that serious.

Heather (00:21:55):

You needed your Sit and Savor Journal. Had you had your journal, you would’ve made it.

Dave (00:21:59):

I would’ve. While she was back there, I could have written quite a—

Ann (00:22:02):

Maybe it’s a way of avoiding. Maybe that’s what I’m doing; avoiding the scariness of it. I didn’t feel like I was scared though until later when we went to the hospital.

Heather (00:22:13):

So it didn’t feel traumatic for you, but you in the waiting room for five days, you’re like, “I don’t know what’s happening to my life.”

Dave (00:22:21):

And probably more scary for me.

Heather (00:22:23):

Yeah, exactly.

Dave (00:22:24):

Because I’m on the outside looking in, “This could be really bad. We don’t know.” And fortunately, the miracle of doctors is wonderful. I mean the fact they can put a little oomph and your artery opens up, that’s completely blocked. And I preached on it yesterday, and I can’t tell you the number of people came up to me in the lobby. “I’ve had that.” “I’ve had that.” “I had three stents.” It’s the miracle of modern medicine is beautiful.

Ann (00:22:51):

Well, it’s funny, the night before this all happened, I was walking and praying, and I felt great. I felt perfect actually. I have a ton of energy, but I had noticed going up the stairs, I felt a little breathless and a little tightness in my chest, which I’ve never had. So I was on my walk probably at 10 o’clock the night before and praying. I’m like, “Lord, if something’s going on in my heart, will you just heal that?”

Heather:

What?!

Dave (00:23:19):

I didn’t even know that until just now. That was Monday night?

Ann (00:23:21):

Yeah, that was Monday night. And it’s so sweet that He hears those prayers and He heals it through our modern medicine.

Heather:

He does.

Dave (00:23:31):

Because it wasn’t until the next evening—we interviewed Gary Chapman on Tuesday.

Ann (00:23:34):

Tuesday.

Dave (00:23:35):

Five Love Languages. He was phenomenal. And then that Tuesday night is when you said, “We’re going to the ER.” Heather, she doesn’t even tell me. She goes upstairs, packs a bag, and I’m sitting on the couch watching the NBA playoffs.

Heather (00:23:46):

Oh my goodness.

Dave (00:23:47):

I go, “Where are you going?” Where am I going?

Ann (00:23:49):

I had told you I had that with my heart one time.

Dave (00:23:52):

But again, she’s had a lot of things like that. It really is.

Dave (00:23:57):

But I mean, in one sense, as she got to the hospital and we got there, she had that perspective. I’m here—

Heather (00:24:04):

That’s so amazing.

Dave (00:24:05):

—not just for me. Maybe God wants to use me in some ministry.

And by the way, when I think of you, that’s what I think. I think two words, and maybe this is your life, maybe it isn’t. I think seated, which is identity; in who we are and everything we’ve talked about with shame, and I think sent and those are also your books.

Heather (00:24:28):

And the name of the ministry that Ash and I are leading, I don’t know if you knew that. Our ministry is called Seated and Sent.

Dave:

That’s it.

Heather:

Yeah. That’s the name of our ministry and—

Ann:

Marketing major right there.

Heather:

Ash really had a vision. He thought the Lord was like, “Look, this is what people need. This is never going to get old. Go and help churches and ministry go back to the basics of Ephesians 2, that you’re seated and now when you know you’re seated, you’re then sent in every situation.” And then it makes life an adventure for sure.

But do you guys also think it’s odd that, I don’t know if you use this in your message on Sunday, but that something was wrong with Ann’s heart and she didn’t know it. That’s kind of like Ephesians 2. You’re dead in your sins and your transgressions. You’re walking around, you don’t even know how bad it is until Jesus heals you and makes you alive in Christ.

Ann:

That is, that’s really good.

Heather:

You’re walking around almost dead.

Ann:

Yeah.

Dave (00:25:25):

I did—you’ll love this.

Heather (00:25:26):

Is that what you did? Tell me what you did.

Dave (00:25:27):

No, not yesterday.

Heather (00:25:28):

Okay.

Dave (00:25:28):

Years ago at my former church, we did Easter. And after Easter, you’re always trying to, we got to create a series or a message that people are going to come back, all these—

Heather:

Yeah, you got to get them back.

Dave:

These people come on Sunday at Easter, you’re like “I got to get them back.” So we come up with this idea based on a TV series called The Walking Dead.

Heather (00:25:45):

Love it.

Dave (00:25:46):

So we call this series The Walking Dead, right? And I’m doing my Easter thing. I say, Hey, by the way, next week we have this graphic, we’re going to do a series called The Walking Dead. You don’t want to miss it. This lady comes up long time. She’s in our church a long time and she’s got to be 70 years old maybe. And she goes, you are so pathetic. You got to grab this cute little TV series and use that. I’m leaving this church. You’ve gone too far. The Walking Dead.

Ann (00:26:16):

Because it’s a zombie show.

Dave (00:26:16):

It was a zombie show. I’d never seen the show, but I knew this thing. And I go, “If you want to leave, you leave, but please come back next week and then decide to leave. You got to see what we do. It’s not what you think.”

Heather (00:26:30):

Okay.

Dave (00:26:31):

She goes, “Okay, I’ll give you one more week.” And she was all mad. She comes back and what I did with the Walking Dead was just what you said. I said, “We are walking dead. We’re dead in our sins. We walk around like we’re alive, but we’re dead. And here’s what the gospel is.” And I go to Ephesians 2, the whole thing, and it’s all about identity and you can be alive in Christ, blah, blah, blah. She comes up afterwards, she goes, “Okay, that was awesome. I’m not leaving your church.” She goes, “I didn’t realize I am the Walking Dead.”

Ann:

Yeah, that’s really good.

Heather:

That’s good.

Dave:

And I tell you what, I have stolen your sent thing a million times. I mean, probably the biggest thing I preach at my church, if people have heard me, they say, “This is Wilson’s slogan: make a dent where you’re sent.” We’ve said it here many times.

Heather (00:27:15):

Oh, I love that.

Dave:

Because it rhymes.

Heather:

Make a dent—I love rhyming things.

Dave (00:27:19):

Make a dent where you’re sent.

Ann (00:27:20):

Tell her where you got it, where you thought of it. It’s the Bible, but it’s also—

Dave (00:27:24):

No, you won’t believe it. I first gave it. This is so long ago. This’ll date me when I saw Tommy Boy, the movie.

Heather (00:27:29):

Really?

Dave (00:27:30):

Do you remember Tommy Boy?

Heather (00:27:31):

I do. But it’s been a long time.

Dave (00:27:33):

Remember he walks into a glass window and goes, “That’ll leave a mark.”

Heather (00:27:36):

Yes, make a dent where—

Dave (00:27:37):

That’s what we’re supposed to do. We’re supposed to leave a mark. Everywhere we go, we should make an impact. Leave a mark. So make a dent what you’re sent but answer this because so many people when I first started preaching that they would come up after the—I think the very first time I didn’t articulate this part of it. They would say, “We know where you’re sent. You’re a pastor, you’re a missionary. You’re sent once. We’re just lay people. Where am I sent? We don’t have a call.” I came up with this profound answer.

Heather (00:28:07):

Tell me.

Dave (00:28:08):

You are sent where you are. Where you are is—and that’s not profound. It’s simple, but I think people don’t understand that.

Heather:

They don’t.

Dave:

Wherever you are. You’re sent as a college professor.

Heather (00:28:20):

Right.

Dave (00:28:20):

Like a plumber or a doctor or a stay-at-home mom, that is your mission field. Wherever you are is your calling. Vancouver.

Ann (00:28:28):

But you can’t know the calling until you know your place at the table.

Heather:

That’s right.

Ann:

Understanding your place at the table and who you are.

Heather (00:28:35):

No, that’s right.

Ann (00:28:36):

Yeah.

Heather (00:28:36):

But the two things people don’t understand about living a sent life, number one, Acts 17; that God has searched out the exact places. It is no accident. He has searched out the exact place where you live, who are your neighbors, where do you work out at the gym, who’s at the grocery store, where do you work. If you believe that it is no accident where you live, that’s number one.

But number two, they think of living a sent life as something you’re adding to your schedule. No, it’s your identity. When Jesus calls the first disciples, He says, “Follow me and I will send you out to fish for people.” And think about John 20:21, “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” It’s this whole identity that people are missing.

Acts 1:8, you’re going to receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you. Once you get people—and it says, “You’ll be my witnesses.” Once people realize that it’s not something they’re doing, that evangelism is who they are, then they begin to look at the world differently and life becomes very exciting, and they feel closer to Jesus. Why? What is Jesus doing? He’s seeking and saving the lost. He’s building a kingdom for himself. Don’t you want to be doing what He’s doing?

(00:29:49):

So of course you’re going to feel closer to him. If you wake up every day and you’re like, “Jesus, let’s go. Who are you sending me to? Help me be an agent of blessing or proclamation? I’m ready,” life is going to open. You’re going to feel like life is a supernatural adventure.

Ann (00:30:05):

And I think for parents as us, to communicate that to our kids is really big. Because the world’s saying “Be all you can be. So conjure up who you think you could be or want to be.” True identity is, discover who you are in Christ at the table.

Heather:

Yes, at the table.

Ann:

And so I remember saying to our six-year-old grandson this week, I said, “Isn’t it incredible that there has never been a Bryce Wilson in the world?”

Heather:

Ever again, yes.

Ann:

“There’s never been somebody like you ever. And there never will be. So God has something so special for you. Aren’t you so excited? You’re living that right now and you’re going to be and do things that no one else has ever done because you’re so unique. Why would you ever want to be somebody else?”

Heather:

That’s so marvelous.

Ann:

Because—and I used to say to our other grandkids, “You’re a genius just because there’s no one like you and never will be ever again in the face of the earth.” And so that’s where that comparison piece and the jealousy piece is huge, especially in girls. I think guys do it too. Don’t they?

Dave:

Of course.

Heather (00:31:08):

I’m sure. I’m sure.

Dave (00:31:09):

I’m the only guy at the table but yes.

Heather (00:31:10):

Tell us about jealousy. No, this girl’s jealous of three different things. She’s jealous of when other girls get attention because her best friend suddenly gets all the attention from boys there. She’s having boys over. The boys seem to like her more. She’s jealous of her friend Margo, who is very wealthy, has a beautiful house. And then she’s also jealous because other people are doing better in school than she is. So it’s really that achievement. Am I achieving enough? Affluence—I call it the three A’s: achievement, affluence and appearance.

Ann (00:31:41):

Oh, that’s good.

Heather (00:31:42):

And you’ll see that in the next book is all about her understanding that she’s beautiful, even if other people insult the way she looks. It’s a book about really what does it mean to be beautiful.

Ann (00:31:52):

I’m so happy you’re doing more because as I even finished the second one, I’m thinking, “Well, we need to know what else happens.”

Heather (00:31:58):

What happened. They’re cliffhangers. Yes. So you got to get all of them for that.

Dave (00:32:03):

I mean, how does a person, can a person, here’s my question. Can a person live into their sentness—again from Cru23, I think it was—

Heather (00:32:14):

Yes, my sent talk.

Dave (00:32:16):

—when you gave that message, and I’m sure you’ve done it other places, but that’s the first time I heard it. And by the way, I’m sitting on my back deck in Michigan—I’m not in the room—watching it on a livestream.

Heather (00:32:26):

I remember you telling me.

Ann:

He came in the house and said, “You have to listen to this.”

Heather (00:32:29):

Oh, I love that.

Dave:

I’m like, “You are not doing anything else in the next 40 minutes. We’re watching this together again.” It was so powerful. But we’re talking about—

Ann (00:32:37):

You’re such a good communicator.

Dave (00:32:38):

Talk about shame and sentness or identity, can you really live into your sentness if you haven’t dealt with your shameness? Hey, there it is, sentness shameness.

Heather (00:32:51):

That’s good.

Dave (00:32:51):

You know what I mean?

Heather (00:32:52):

Well, I mean, are you really asking, can God use you, can you do this even if there are parts of you that aren’t healed yet? Is that what you’re really asking?

Dave (00:33:03):

No. I mean, I think we can.

Heather (00:33:05):

Yes.

Dave (00:33:05):

But there’s part of me is like, man, if I’m so obsessed with me—

Heather (00:33:09):

Oh yes.

Dave (00:33:09):

—and I don’t know who I am and I’m afraid—and again, we all do this—how do I lift my eyes and see others and realize Acts 17, that I’m in a situation that God put me in and I am His vessel. I can be sent right now, open my mouth, help somebody rather than I’m here and I can’t get over my shame.

Heather (00:33:33):

Right. Well, one thing that’s encouraged me is the very things that I struggled with most in my life, the things where I carried the most shame is how God uses me the most with people. So if someone’s listening and they’re like, “Well, I’ve done terrible things. I’m such a disappointment. I’m such a failure,” well, the story you’re going to tell, what if that story is because God’s going to send you to heal some people because of the story you’re going to tell about your life or the way you connect with someone based on the things that the story God’s written in your life. But if you think, “Oh, I could never be used by God because I’m so, I’m nobody or I’m just a disappointment,” I mean, Paul himself gloried in his weakness because he said, “Well, the power of Christ rests on me.” You’re not bringing yourself to people.

(00:34:22):

You’re bringing Jesus to people. So you’re kind of not even the point of it all. You’re just introducing them to Jesus and the whole time you’re like, “By the way, I’m a mess. I’m worse than you can imagine. Charge it to Jesus’s account.” I mean, that’s the whole gospel. But I do think shame will really get you down. It will really send you into hiding. So just if you think that you’ve done something terrible, as soon as you bring it into the light with Jesus and with other people, you’re going to find healing. That’s what the community of Christ is for. That’s what we’re all here for.

Ann (00:34:56):

Heather, take us back to your journey because you did that a little bit when we had you on before, but this idea of shame and things that we’ve done, you felt like, “Can God use me, and can He see me?” What has your journey been?

Heather (00:35:12):

Well, part of it’s hard to tell because I protect, I don’t talk a lot about family or different things, but I just had a lot of hard things happen to me right around 12 years old. Just difficult things happening in my family, a lot of loss. I’m also a military daughter, so I had to move a lot. And that’s a really hard way to grow up where you’re moving every two years, saying goodbye to your friends.

Ann (00:35:36):

You’re finding a table every few years. It’s a new table at lunch with girls.

Heather (00:35:41):

And the important part of my story is that I prayed to receive Christ at that time, but I really had no good discipleship. I didn’t understand the spirit-filled life, so I just operated out of my flesh all the time. So I was doing everything I could to get a seat at the table in those three ways if only I could achieve more. I gave my life to getting the best grades. I had to go to University of Virginia. I was a national debater. I had to go get the PhD, all of that. I also just really thought the goal in life is to be wealthy and then appearance.

Dave:

It isn’t?

Heather (00:36:18):

No. Trying to be really thin and beautiful. I grew up in a culture where that really matters even now in some southern cultures that the worst thing that can happen to you is to get old, wrinkles or gray hair, whatever.

And then just needing a lot of attention. I dated all the time. I thought that life was going to be romance. That’s the answer. And of course, I did things that all college students do at University of Virginia. I was drinking at fraternity parties, dating all kinds of guys. I was in my dorm room, and I was listening to an Amy Grant song My Father’s Eyes. I had my childhood Bible and I remember getting on my knees and I was reading John 10:10 where Jesus says, “I’ve come that you may have life and have it abundantly.” And what I was doing was not life.

(00:37:06):

It was like killing me. And I was so ashamed because I wanted Jesus. But there was part of me that was like, I don’t know how to have abundant life. I’m just going to do all the things. I’m going to exercise myself to exhaustion, to be really thin. I’m going to date all the boys. I’m going to be wealthy. You just start to die inside. So my life turned around really when I got involved with Cru as a grad student at University of Michigan. And the difference was honestly understanding the Spirit-filled life and how I didn’t have to live the Christian life on my own strength.

Did you guys find that, that there were some core teachings that you maybe have missed growing up and then all of a sudden you read a book, or someone phrases it the right way? I just didn’t understand how to connect with God and have the Holy Spirit empower me to live an impossible life.

Ann (00:37:55):

Yes.

Heather (00:37:56):

Is that what happened to you?

Ann (00:37:57):

I remember being in seminary, knowing the scriptures, understanding who I am in Christ, and it was so theoretical in my head, I kept asking, “How do I get it into my heart to believe it?” I understand it. I understand theologically where I stand in Christ, but why do I still feel so much shame? I can’t—that’s the part I just couldn’t get them both to work. And that’s why I feel like your books, especially to these girls in this age group, it’s a discipleship book.

Heather (00:38:30):

That’s exactly right. Thank you for saying it like that. That’s my dream is to give little girls what I didn’t get.

Ann (00:38:37):

It’s exactly when you said that I’m like, “Well, you’re giving it to them now.” And isn’t it sweet that God’s using the loss or what you didn’t have? And he just always uses it and redeems it, doesn’t he? Now you’re being sent to these girls at that same age that didn’t get it. Because the discipleship piece in this, even having somebody like Elita has a neighbor.

Heather (00:38:59):

And a mentor, an older mentor. Well, that really mattered to me because I know a lot of children whose parents are maybe mentally ill. The mother isn’t able to function the way she should, and maybe the dad is an alcoholic or whatever it is. There are children walking around right now in your neighborhood that do not have basic things they need for a stable and secure home. But this is even in the social science research, just the presence of one—think about teachers—one stable, predictable, positive adult who sees them and speaks life into them is life-changing for a child.

Dave (00:39:40):

Is that how you feel in your job now?

Heather (00:39:42):

As a 50-year-old woman?

Dave (00:39:44):

Yeah, as a university—

Heather (00:39:45):

Well, oh yes, as a university instructor, I really—when you get your classroom of students, you don’t know the trauma that’s coming into that room. You don’t know what their background is. But for at least the 16 weeks that I have them, I’m going to be a certain predictable, joyful presence. And they know I pray blessing over them. They know that I’m a Christian writer and Christian public figure. They will talk to me about their faith or if they’re searching for God, they’ll often talk to me about that. But yeah, I do see myself like that.

Dave (00:40:18):

Yeah. What a powerful—

Heather (00:40:19):

Yeah.

Ann (00:40:20):

It makes me cry because it’s such a powerful position that God has put you in.

Dave (00:40:24):

We used to have a little banner in our green room at our church that said, never underestimate the pain in the room.

Heather (00:40:30):

Oh, that’s right.

Dave (00:40:30):

It was just a great reminder because you’re walking out there “Jesus is good. He’s awesome.” It’s like he is, but there’s people had a really hard day or week; just to understand they are in lot of pain right now. Maybe they’re sitting there and you’re talking about marriage, and they are filing for divorce. It’s real. Everyone around us is in pain, and we get to be sent ones who can remind them of who God is and where He is.

Heather:

Exactly.

Ann (00:40:53):

And our kids’ friends that come over to our house and pop in our lives. I remember we were going on a field trip. I think our son was in the second grade. And so all the kids were saying, “I want to be in this car. I want to be in this car.” And then they were divvying up where the kids were going, and this one little boy Timothy was going to be in a certain car. And all the kids in that car said, “No, we don’t want him.” It was like my heart was shattered for him. And you could just see his entire demeanor.

Heather:

No, that’s so painful.

Ann:

So I said, “Please, can we please have Timmy in our car?”

Heather:

Thank you. Yes.

Ann:

So he gets in the car as an 8-year-old, and I remember reaching back and grabbing him and say, I am thrilled that you’re in our car.

Dave (00:41:40):

Is this the same Timmy?

Ann (00:41:41):

No, it’s a different one. But I just said, “Because you’re, I’ve been around you. I see you and you’ve got a lot to give. You’ve got a lot of things you have going for you.” And he took my hand, and he said, “Mrs. Wilson, you can say that, but it is not easy to live it because life is really hard.”

Heather (00:42:01):

It is. Now how old is he?

(00:42:02):

He was eight.

Heather:

I know kids get, they’re mean. They’re middle schoolers. I talked to the 11, 12-year-old girls are like, why are girls so mean? Why are boys so mean? So yeah, you don’t know what’s been said to your child when they walk in the door and you’ve got snack ready and you say, “Hey, how was your day?” And they don’t want to talk about it. You don’t know. So to continue to speak life over them and to what you said, and what I mean by that is encouraging words, things you see about them.

Ann:

And be specific.

Dave (00:42:33):

I shouldn’t tell this story, but I’m going to real quick. I did a blessing of the bikes on Saturday.

Heather (00:42:39):

A blessing of the bikes?!

Ann:

And motorcycles.

Dave:

Do you know what that is?

Heather (00:42:42):

No, but I love this.

Dave:

Our church will do this.

Heather (00:42:45):

It’s like a blessing of the boats.

Dave (00:42:47):

Yeah, it’d be the same thing.

Heather (00:42:48):

But the bikes.

Dave (00:42:48):

It’s a big deal for motorcycle riders. They don’t have to be church guys at all. Or women.

Heather (00:42:52):

The blessing of the bikes.

Dave (00:42:52):

They want somebody to pray over their bike because anytime you get on a bike, you never know. And so we had one at our church where we pray over every bike and every rider, and then we go on a ride. And it was a church I’d never been to. And they say, “Hey, will you speak for seven minutes? Just anything you want.” So I talked about rejecting passivity in your life, that there’s something in all of us that’s passive and we need to reject that and step into people’s life.

I said, let me tell you a story. And it’s this story. And that’s why I said, “Is it the same Timmy?” My oldest son’s 39. He was at this Christian school, and they really encouraged parents to come and show up recess sometimes and whatever. And moms all went. And Ann’s like, “You should go sometime.” I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to go.” I go and it’s like recess time or lunchtime, I can’t remember. But all I know is there’s this football laying on the ground. I’m an old college quarterback. I’m like, Hey, who wants to play football? So I split up the teams and it was all boys. And I’m the all-time quarterback going back and forth. And I had one goal, get every kid on each team the ball.

Heather (00:43:51):

—to catch a ball.

Dave (00:43:51):

Just throw him a pass and who cares who wins. And so there’s this kid named Timmy, and he was actually, our son’s, one of his best friends, and he was not an athletic kid, but I’m going to get Timmy the ball. And so early in the game, I throw it to him, he’s very close, he drops it.

Heather (00:44:06):

Oh no, Timmy,

Dave (00:44:07):

He just can’t catch it. And I won’t even use his name. Well yell. There’s a kid on the—best athlete in the school, ended up playing college soccer, yells—he’s on the other team. And he goes, “Mr. Wilson never throw the ball to Timmy.”

Heather (00:44:22):

Timmy.

Dave (00:44:23):

He stinks basically. But he used a different word. And I yell at Ben, I go, “Ben, we don’t talk like that out here.”

Heather (00:44:30):

Good.

Dave (00:44:30):

“Well, I’m just telling you the kid is worthless. He can’t do it.” And so we go on and go on and later in the game, it’s about recess, about the end. I got to get Timmy the ball. Everybody else has gotten the ball. So I’m like a foot away. Here Timmy; drops it; just wasn’t his gift.

(00:44:45):

And Ben goes off again, and I tell you, Heather, today I’d probably be thrown to jail. I literally walk over and grab Ben from the back of his shirt, not forcefully, but strong enough to walk him over to the teacher standing by the door to go into the school. And I said, “Hey, this young man needs to go in. He’s done.” You’ll love this. The teacher looks at me and goes, “And you are who?” They’re like, “Oh, I’m CJ Wilson’s dad. I’m here.” She goes, “Yeah, well, he didn’t do anything that I saw. So you’re good to go, Ben.” And then Ben goes, “I told you, Mr. Wilson. I told you.” And she goes, “Okay, now I saw it. You’re done.” And she takes him in.

And that’s the end of the story until Thursday, three days later. I’m at parent teacher conference and some lady taps me on the back of my shoulder when I’m talking to the teacher and I turn around. I’ve never seen this lady before. I go, “Can I help you?” She goes, “Are you CJ Wilson’s dad?” I go, “Yeah.” She starts crying.

Heather (00:45:43):

Oh no.

Dave (00:45:44):

She goes, “I’m Timmy’s mom.” I go, “Oh, good to meet you.” And she goes, “Timmy came home Monday and told me that you stood up for him—”

Heather (00:45:51):

Oh my gosh.

Dave (00:45:52):

—”on the playground. And he said nobody has ever stood up for him. Can I just say thank you?” I mean, I’m just sitting there crying.

Heather:

Nobody stood up for them.

Dave:

Did I know that moment that’s what was going on. I didn’t even think about it. This young boy needs somebody to say. And today, Tim’s in successful engineering mind guy.

Ann:

That’s his place at the table.

Dave:

So is our son, CJ, and that was his seat. And it was like, that’s what God calls us to do.

Heather (00:46:21):

Stand up.

Dave (00:46:22):

That’s a sent moment.

Heather (00:46:23):

Yeah, stand up for people.

Dave (00:46:24):

We’re being Jesus. Would Jesus do what I did? That’s what Jesus exactly would do. So man, how powerful is that? —to live that?

Ann (00:46:31):

I think as adults, it’s very easy to get so wrapped up in ourselves, our worlds, our thoughts and feelings that I think it’s part of Satan’s strategy that we don’t see those around us.

Heather (00:46:43):

Especially the children around you. Jesus loves children. I love how in the Bible, the disciples are like, “Don’t bother him.” Jesus says, “Let the little children come to me.” He loves children. And you can be that fun neighborhood mom or dad that blesses the children.

Dave (00:47:01):

I mean, the sad thing, you know this better than anybody. What you’re writing about in this story with Elita doesn’t change when we’re 30.

Heather (00:47:09):

No, that’s the thing.

Dave (00:47:10):

It’s still the same struggle.

Heather (00:47:10):

It’s still the same struggle of jealousy. And I was asking Ann about it. Once you know you’re seated at the table, it kind of changes as you get older. Maybe you’re jealous of other people’s children are getting married and having kids, or you are a grandparent, but the other grandparents get to see the children more and whatever it is. So how do you apply scripture and the truth of who you are in Christ to help heal you from jealousy? Because when you’re jealous, you’re not really able to care for people well, because you’re just hurting inside and you’re thinking about yourself and what’s missing from your life. So you really have to believe by thinking God’s sovereignty and go back to gratitude and really believe that the table where you are is exactly where you’re supposed to be. And in the book, the secret three words that Mrs.

(00:47:59):

Burgley says to Elita to help her with jealousy, which a lot of women have told me has made all the difference in their life, is when you’re jealous, you say, “That’s her seat” or “That’s his seat.” That’s not my seat. They win all the prizes; that’s her seat. She gets the beautiful mansion, married children, whatever; that’s her seat. God has a seat for you with special blessings designed just for you that will delight you. Think about the number of times you see scripture where God is doing something delightful. The key passage in this from 1 Timothy where it says, “God richly provides all things for your enjoyment.” And you know how in Psalm 103, “He satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagles.” So don’t you think God knows how to bless your life that will be a blessing for you? —that’s different. And who knows, maybe you wouldn’t want that life that you’re jealous of. Maybe it would be terrible for you.

Ann (00:48:57):

So after you’ve written this first book, This Seat Saved, did you get any feedback from moms or daughters?

Heather (00:49:05):

Yes. And I still do to this day.

Ann:

You do?

Heather:

Yes. Part of it was when it won Christianity Today’s book of the year. It got a lot of attention so moms could trust it; that it was a good book. So I get little letters. Sometimes I get notes in the mail. They’re adorable. And usually they say, “This exact same thing happened to me, but now I know I’m seated with Jesus .” And the things that they worry about. I got a letter from a reader a couple weeks ago, and this was an email that her and her mom sent me. And she said, “I’m really jealous because my friend has two golden retrievers and I’m not ever going to get a dog because my dad’s allergic or something. And I had to say to myself, that’s her seat, but I’m really struggling, Mrs. Holleman. I’m never going to get a dog. How is Jesus going to make this right?” And I just thought the things that little kids care about.

Ann (00:49:56):

That’s so cute though.

Heather (00:49:58):

Yeah.

Ann (00:49:58):

And then the second book The Disappearing Seat just keeps going with the adventure.

Heather (00:50:04):

Yes, just different struggles she has. And the key is how she trusts God and begins to pray to him and understand how God sees her, mostly through the Psalms and different passages that her mentor sends her. The third book that’s coming out is called The Elite Seat, and it’s what happens when you do become popular. So Dave, this book is for you.

And then the last that I just signed the contract for, the last seat follows Summer. So you get all the seasons, and it’s set in Pennsylvania. So it’s the seasons that are all in the Pennsylvania woods. The last book is called This Seat’s Yours, and it’s what happens when a leader realizes God has her on a mission to be sent. You’ll love it. So it’s going to be a four-book series that a little middle schooler can read and fortify themselves against the things that will happen throughout their life.

Dave (00:50:57):

I mean, what you’re talking about in terms of identity, this is what I’m just thinking right now. It’s like when we understand—whether we’re middle school girl, boy, 50, 60-year-old man or woman, married, divorced, blended, it doesn’t matter—when we understand who we are seated in Christ, it probably, am I exaggerating? One of the most attractive things to the non-Christian world, they’re drawn to that. A person that’s secure that isn’t striving for all these seats, they know where they’re seated. Don’t you think that is? It’s our sin identity. They’re drawn to that. When you come across somebody, there’s a peace in their life. There’s a joy or life. It’s not connected to striving for something. Am I right? It’s like there’s something about that.

Heather (00:51:46):

I think it pretty much—understanding Ephesians 2, I’m beginning to think it solves almost every problem that you will have in life because you apply it. Because remember the beginning of Ephesians 2 talks about you can follow the ways of the world and it says it’s the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. A lot of the tables that you are fighting for, you want to seat there because you believe it’s going to bring you life. Well, guess what? That table’s probably following the way of the world.

Dave (00:52:18):

Yeah.

Heather (00:52:19):

There are many warnings about the pursuit of wealth in the Bible, many warnings about the love of money, and yet that’s the table we all want to sit at. If only I had more money, or think about if you’re listening and you’re like, well, I need the table of good health, or this isn’t unbiblical. I want to be at the table of a happy marriage or children. Well, what I’m learning is if I’m fighting for a seat at the table, even if it’s a good thing, it might be an idol for me. It’s a false resting place.

Ann:

Yes, hundred percent.

Heather:

And you didn’t know it’s a false resting place. You, having a strong heart; even that was a false resting place. It’s not where your security comes from. And we know that you literally were in a hospital for four days or five days. So God’s teaching me when I think to myself, “I need this thing in order to be okay,” Jesus says, “No you don’t. You’re already at the greatest table with the greatest king.” That is the foundation.

Ann (00:53:18):

That right there for women, when it comes to our marriages, does God want you to have a good marriage? Of course. But we have to surrender that because I made Dave and marriage my idol for a decade thinking—

Dave (00:53:32):

Idol, meaning?

Ann (00:53:33):

Meaning, if you would get your act together—

Heather:

Be more romantic, redecorate my house for me, yes.

Ann:

I could be happy. And our happiness does not depend on a great husband or great kids or a perfect life. It depends on Jesus and the gospel and our surrender to Him. That’s when we find contentment of our soul.

Heather (00:53:54):

And when you are content, you’re not nagging your husband all the time. And I mean, most of the things I fight about in my marriage have to do with superficial things that have to do with me wanting more of something.

Ann (00:54:06):

Yes.

Heather (00:54:06):

So when I surrendered, I don’t need this perfect house, suddenly I’m at peace and I’m not. So if you made a list of the top things you argue about, usually it’s related to an idol I think, don’t you? Probably either something you want that’s being denied you or something you’re afraid of.

Ann (00:54:24):

Or I think it can represent pain in our past that we’re trying to get our husband to meet the need that we had. Like, “You don’t see me.” Oh you don’t? Well, because I wasn’t seen growing up and so now, I want Dave to see me. Do you know what I mean? So it’s a pain or an injury in the past, something happened that now I want him to fill that need.

Dave (00:54:42):

And why don’t I see her? Because I’m out conquering the world trying to get seen.

Heather (00:54:47):

Well, Ash and I, we do a lot with the book we wrote on having better conversations, which Gary Chapman actually wrote the forward to that book. So I love him. You guys just interviewed him. One of the things we’re seeing is just loneliness in marriage because they’ve lost the art of communication. So one of the things that Ash and I love to do is before you live a sent life, you actually need to know how to engage people in loving meaningful ways. And it’s so simple. It’s not complex; learning how to ask really good questions of your spouse. You can even have a list of five questions that always work. Tell me the highlight of your day today or what surprised you about your day. So you’re just asking questions that people like to answer. Did anything new happen to you today? So Ash and I teaching people just the art of conversation has been life-changing for loneliness in marriage because you need what researchers just call a warm connection. And when you have that warm connection, you’re going to feel like marriage is working again for you. So that’s another component to it. There are simple solutions to some of these things, which I know you guys see in your couples retreats, all that you do.

Ann (00:55:54):

And as a listener, you might be thinking, “I know he never asked me those questions.” You be the one to ask the question first. And it’ll be amazing how that will open up a whole new area for you in your marriage with communication, to be friends.

Heather (00:56:09):

Well, the best tip we have, Ash and I, is if you are out with your spouse and you can’t think of what to talk about, just say to your spouse, here is the question I’m hoping you’ll ask me. Just tell them what you want to talk about.

Ann (00:56:23):

So good. Yes.

Heather (00:56:24):

Yes. And then sometimes the beauty of marriage is carrying one another’s burdens. But again, this relates to journaling to be self-aware enough that you know what’s on your mind. So even saying to your spouse, what did you think about most today? If you’re, and you want to be a reflective person, so you know what God’s doing and what you’re thinking about. Ash and I really believe that living a sent life as a couple is the most exciting thing you can do.

Ann (00:56:51):

Yeah.

Heather (00:56:51):

Making a list of five couples in your neighborhood who don’t know Jesus and inviting them to dinner and being on mission together to see what God will do.

Ann (00:56:58):

It’s the best. It’s the best.

Heather (00:56:59):

Yeah.

Dave (00:57:00):

Hey, here’s my last question. If you—well, you can right now. Talk to a mom of a middle school girl. What would you tell this mom she needs to do or know or say or not say? I’m giving you all kinds of options but think of that mom. You’ve been that mom.

Heather (00:57:20):

Yes.

Dave (00:57:21):

And it could be a dad, but I’m thinking of a mom specifically. What do they need to know? What are they missing?

Heather (00:57:28):

I think the number one thing parents can do is help children connect with Jesus in prayer, to go to Him with what they need. I know it sounds so simple, but keeping a prayer journal with your child is probably one of the number one things you can start doing right now.

Dave (00:57:41):

To do it together.

Heather (00:57:42):

We do it even to this day. I told you my girls are in their twenties. We call it the PJ, the Prayer journal. I’ll text them and say, “What do you girls have for the PJ today? What are five things you’re praying for?” We’ve been doing that for probably 20 years. And it used to be things like, “Well pray that I have a good lunch today,” or “Pray that I do okay on my spelling test.” Now it’s huge things. My daughter is moving out to Colorado, CSU actually, for her PhD in immunology. The prayer requests are huge: “Pray I have funding for my program,” “Pray I find a house in Colorado,” “Pray that God leads me to a good church,” whatever it is. So you get to really pray together as a family. I can’t remember if it was James Dobson or who said it back in the day, the number one way to grow the faith of a child is to start a prayer journal.

(00:58:29):

Did you remember ever hearing that?

Ann:

No. But it’s really good.

Heather:

And then the reason why, here’s the big reason why Dave, getting your child excited to see what I call a divine activity. It’ll change their life to be like, “God is real. He hears me. He’s at work answering my prayers.” Now, even if He doesn’t answer—that’s why The Disappearing Seed is such a good book— “Where is God when I don’t see Him answering?” But you begin to trust Him for things. You begin to see the way He’s at work.

Ann:

That’s so good.

Heather:

Yeah, I don’t think people believe that God’s really at work. I mean, think of, what is it, Psalm 34, “He formed the hearts of all and considers everything they do.” Everything. But why don’t people think God is here for me? Or they think I talk to friends who say, “Well, God doesn’t have time for me. Why would He listen to my prayers?” Well, because He’s infinitely loving and infinitely wise and infinitely generous.

Ann (00:59:25):

And a good Father.

Heather (00:59:25):

And He’s listening and Jesus ever lives to intercede. So I think prayer, what do you guys think? What would you say?

Dave (00:59:34):

I mean that’s power. I think less than one percent of parents probably have a PJ.

Heather (00:59:38):

They need the PJ, the sit and save journal.

Ann:

You can do it as a family too, even at dinner if your kids are in your home, just so that they can see, as you said it, God’s activity.

Heather (00:59:50):

And you could use different words like some of the social science research about warm connections and families is you can say things like, “What’s the big stress today?” Or “What’s the thought going through your mind you can’t get rid of today?” Because rumination—

(01:00:05):

—if you talk to even a 7-year-old, “Hey, do you have a thought in your mind you can’t get rid of?” what you’re asking them is what is the stress? They might not have words for it, but they may say something like, “Oh, I’m really nervous. I keep thinking I’m going to have a nosebleed.” How would you know what’s on your child’s mind?

Ann:

That’s a really good question.

Heather:

And my daughter, this happened to her, and she had so much anxiety, and I couldn’t figure it out. And so when they say that, you can say, “Okay, let’s put it in the prayer journal and then let’s think of some strategies. What happens if you do get a nosebleed? What are we going to do?” And then you’re empowering them to solve their problems. So you could use the prayer journal just for major stressors, which I love that because Jesus says, “Cast your cares upon me.”

Ann (01:00:53):

And even learning to take their thoughts captive.

Heather (01:00:55):

Yes. Yes. The fears, they have so much fear.

Ann (01:00:56):

What are you afraid of. What do I do with that? I mean, we’re all wondering that. What do I do with all these fears and the stressors in my life? And is it okay? Should I ruminate? Because you use the word in these books, the kids’ books “Savor.” But for savoring, it’s like you’re thinking on the things that are good.

Heather (01:01:17):

Yeah. The research term is positive rumination. And here’s a little pro tip to the parents. When they put it in the prayer journal, it’s out of their brain. The prayer journal holds it.

Ann:

That’s so good.

Heather:

They don’t have to hold it.

Ann (01:01:31):

Yes.

Heather (01:01:32):

So don’t worry about it. It’s in the prayer journal. And then I read this great quote, you’re going to love this. Specificity makes visibility. So when it’s specific you don’t pray “God, help me have a good day.” Ask God for what you really need in a specific way and just see what He does.

Ann (01:01:51):

That’s so good.

Heather (01:01:51):

He’s going to hear it. He might not say yes, but he’s going to hear that prayer and answer it in some way.

Ann (01:01:57):

If I were a mom with kids under my roof, I would listen to this podcast over and over again. I just want you to know I would because there’s so much richness and practicality in what you’re doing. But I would definitely get these books. I already have gotten one of these for my granddaughter and we’re going to be together with them not too long. And I want to talk about even the questions in the backs of the books.

Heather (01:02:20):

Oh yes. There’s a lot of good questions. There’re some really good questions. And one cool thing is I heard a mom say they’re doing a mother-daughter book club where the moms are reading Seated with Christ, the adult books. The kids are reading This Seat Saved, The Disappearing Seat, and then they separate to do their different, but then they come back together because the questions are the same in each book.

Ann:

So good.

Where, “Hey, tell us the story, Mom.” What was, in fact, you can ask someone in their fifties, “Hey, do you remember the middle school lunchroom?” And they will remember. They will tell you the name of the popular girl that rejected them from the middle school lunchroom. I travel all over the world speaking on Seated with Christ. When I tell them the story of the middle school lunchroom rejection, they will cry. They will remember that feeling of the first time they knew they didn’t have a seat at the table. So you can read it along with your daughter and answer the questions in the back. And you can even ask like, “Hey, what was the trending food that you guys ate in the lunchroom? What was the lunchroom like for you?” It’s different now. They’re all on their phones.

Dave:

Yeah.

Ann (01:03:21):

Yeah. So I think as a mom I would read it and then I would talk about it with my daughter, or son.

Heather:

Do it. Well, you’re like Mrs. Burgley, because you’re the grandma.

Ann:

I thought I would want to be Mrs. Burgley.

Heather (01:03:32):

You are like her.

Ann:

She’s the neighbor who was basically discipling her.

Heather:

She is. And she continues to. She’s going to travel out to see her even.

Ann:

That’s so sweet.

Dave (01:03:40):

Hey, we got Bruce in there is the father of young daughters. I want to ask Bruce a question. Do you think you’ll be doing something like this with your girls when they get a little older?

Bruce:

Well, we’ve got one who’s nine. So I mean, I’ve already got it up on Amazon here.

Dave:

Do you?

Heather:

Yes.

Dave:

I mean, it sounds like something you would do, doesn’t it? Like now?

Bruce:

Yeah.

Heather (01:04:03):

Nine-year-olds do read it. It does prepare you for middle school. I even had a group of homeschool girls who’d never experienced this because they don’t have lunchroom. They said, “No, it is just as bad. When we go to the co-ops or youth group, we walk into the room, we don’t know where our seat is.” They said, “Thank you.”

Ann:

Who are my friends?

Heather:

Yeah. I said, “Look, when you walk into a room and you know you’re at the best table with Jesus, you can look up and then look for who doesn’t have a seat and invite them.”

Ann:

So good.

Heather:

You’re going to love it.

Ann (01:04:33):

That’s really good.

Dave (01:04:34):

Good stuff.

Ann (01:04:35):

Thanks, Heather. We love you.

Heather (01:04:37):

Well, thank you. Thank you for having me out. I love being with you.

Ann (01:04:39):

We’ll always have you back.

Heather:

Yes.

Dave (01:04:42):

So you don’t need to go to Amazon to get your books. You can, but we’ve got them in our show notes. Tell our—we have people watching too. They’re watching and listening. What are the books that we’re going to put in the show notes for them?

Heather (01:04:53):

Well, you want to order This Seat Saved. It’s book one. Book two is called The Disappearing Seat. But you order the companion journal, the Sit and Saver Journal right along with it, and they will love it. It’s a perfect summer reading. It’s perfect to start the school year.

Dave (01:05:09):

Yes. And the links in the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com. That’s where you’re going to find these. Here’s another question.

Heather (01:05:16):

Okay.

Dave (01:05:16):

And this one is going to be for our monthly partners. These are financial partners with us.

Ann (01:05:20):

That are giving monthly.

Dave (01:05:21):

And we have a special little question just for them.

Heather (01:05:25):

Okay.

Dave (01:05:25):

If you’re not a partner with us, I’m telling you right now, become a partner with us.

Heather (01:05:28):

Become a partner of FamilyLife, yes.

Dave (01:05:30):

Yeah. I don’t even know how I’m going to ask this question, but it’s going to be, we’re going to revisit something you said the last time you were here about the Hayden Planetarium.

Heather (01:05:37):

Yes.

Dave (01:05:39):

It has something to do with every seat.

Heather (01:05:40):

Yes. I love that quote.

Dave (01:05:41):

Yeah.

Heather (01:05:42):

That’s in there. That’s in This Seat Saved as well.

Dave (01:05:45):

So you can get that in the show notes. But if you want to become a monthly partner, you can hear her answer. And you can do that by going to FamilyLifeToday.com, click the donate button at the top.

Ann (01:05:56):

Hey, thanks for watching and if you liked this episode—

Dave (01:05:59):

You better like it.

Ann (01:06:00):

—just hit that like button.

Dave (01:06:01):

And we’d like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can’t say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don’t think I can say this word.

Ann:

Like and subscribe.

Dave:

Look at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.

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